What would a TL 191 version of The New Order: The Last Days of Europe look like?
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Somebody on Reddit posted a series of maps of a post-Entente victory in North America, called "There is No Hope under the Golden Circle" or "It's Always Sunny in West-Jersey."
Here is the basic map. Here is a map including the US as a set of warlord like TNO!Russia. Here is a map of the Dixie Civil War. There's a lot of great discussion in the comments here
I'm not sure who the Confederate stand-ins for the German successors would be. One commenter suggested George Wallace as a Speer analogue, proposing token reforms but in his heart still being a true believer in Freedomite ideology. His Gang of Four would include the likes of Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy Carter as legitimate reformers.
I like the idea of Patton and Potter as Schoerner and Spiedel but don't know which pairing is a better fit. Maybe Saul Goldman and Jefferson Pinkard for Bormann and Heydrich? And I have no idea for Goering. It's been a while since I've read TL-191 so I don't remember all the nuance (I even had to google a list of characters)
Here is the basic map. Here is a map including the US as a set of warlord like TNO!Russia. Here is a map of the Dixie Civil War. There's a lot of great discussion in the comments here
I'm not sure who the Confederate stand-ins for the German successors would be. One commenter suggested George Wallace as a Speer analogue, proposing token reforms but in his heart still being a true believer in Freedomite ideology. His Gang of Four would include the likes of Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy Carter as legitimate reformers.
I like the idea of Patton and Potter as Schoerner and Spiedel but don't know which pairing is a better fit. Maybe Saul Goldman and Jefferson Pinkard for Bormann and Heydrich? And I have no idea for Goering. It's been a while since I've read TL-191 so I don't remember all the nuance (I even had to google a list of characters)
This is good stuff. Thanks for the links. Love the idea of Tsarist Russia being the Imperial Japan analog.
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I suppose that Taboritsky would be Kishi analogue, Kido would be Shepunov , Kaya would be....Yemyelanov (he'd fit as a proponent of Freedomite-esque solutions in Imperial Russia), Ino (starting Japanese PM) would Semyonov, Ikeda would be Shafarevich and Takagi would be Gul. I think that Turkey would fit as China analogue and Alparslan Turkes as Long Yun.
Taboritsky doesn't make sense as Kishi, he's far too unhinged/insane. Kishi is entirely sane, just evil. In that light perhaps Rodzaevsky would be a good fit for Kishi.
Also: Malcolm X as Kovner. "They wanted one thing: Antiqam. Revenge."
I don't think there's a need for a direct analogue to everything in TNO and any worldbuilding project would suffer from trying to make the pieces line up. For example, the map I linked above has 191!Mexico as the equivalent of TNO!Italy, but in TL-191 Mexico more closely resembled Spain especially given its interwar situation. The parallels are always going to be strained so I don't think we can line up the timelines in anything other than broad strokes.
That said, I'm curious what the situation in Europe would be. The US in TNO is the last surviving major member of the Allies and has maintained its status as a world power. If you really want to push the parallels then I suppose Germany could fill that role in the 191 version, but I don't see the UK, France, and Russia letting a hostile power remain in central Europe. I think a 191!Entente victory scenario would need to be an absolute victory since the existence of the CSA means that none of the major powers have a continent to themselves.
Considering there are four major Entente members all broadly rightist but with different ideological flavors (IIRC, the UK remains democratic despite a strong fascist presence in government, and I don't see any of the European members staying as radicalized following a GW2 victory, at least not to the degree of the Freedom Party). The Cold War could be either tripolar (CSA/Golden Circle vs. Russian sphere vs. Anglo-French sphere) or quadrupolar (if the UK and France split).
Again, its been a while since I've read TL-191 so forgive me if I have the details fuzzy, especially on the political situation in the European Entente members.
That said, I'm curious what the situation in Europe would be. The US in TNO is the last surviving major member of the Allies and has maintained its status as a world power. If you really want to push the parallels then I suppose Germany could fill that role in the 191 version, but I don't see the UK, France, and Russia letting a hostile power remain in central Europe. I think a 191!Entente victory scenario would need to be an absolute victory since the existence of the CSA means that none of the major powers have a continent to themselves.
Considering there are four major Entente members all broadly rightist but with different ideological flavors (IIRC, the UK remains democratic despite a strong fascist presence in government, and I don't see any of the European members staying as radicalized following a GW2 victory, at least not to the degree of the Freedom Party). The Cold War could be either tripolar (CSA/Golden Circle vs. Russian sphere vs. Anglo-French sphere) or quadrupolar (if the UK and France split).
Again, its been a while since I've read TL-191 so forgive me if I have the details fuzzy, especially on the political situation in the European Entente members.
The discussion in the reddit post proposed that Britain and France lost against Germany in the west, but Germany wasn't so successful in the East, allowing Russia to become a loose analog to Japan. But yeah, Europe and Russia are the two blocs I'm most interested in. A Socdem Kaiserreich and all that.
If we are going with that warlord map, perhaps the Men analogue could be some religious reformer like the Cetics in After The End?
Well, if you take Kishi as a self-serving guy at first, than analogy in Russia is obvious....Oktan.
jparker77
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The problem is that I don’t really see who the Himmler/Burgundy analogue could be. Pennsylvania and New Jersey is a long way from the Confederate heartland after all, and I don’t really see them adapting the sort of “more southern than thou” mentality(like Burgundy’s ”we’re the “real” Aryans view of Nazi Germany).
Maybe they could have a turner diaries style outlook on everything.
Oktan-Kaya
Rodzheavsky-Kishi
Gul-Takagi
Levitov-Ikeda(oweing to his role in KN as wanting to uphold the status quo, through KN!Levitov is a bit closer to Speer)
A major issue with TL-191 TNO and CSA as Germany is that a lot of the characters were born in the 1880s and might be too old to assume power and govern for 10 years. I could however see Koenig as Bormann.
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I think it would help if the TL-191 TNO had elements of Fatherland, since we kinda need an OFN equvilent. This could be achieved by having Germany defeat France and stalemate Britain, but CSA wins in the South and a superbomb is used to force Germany to the peace table before it could attack Russia. So we'd have CSA vs. Russia vs. Mittleuropa cold war.
Also the linked maps are a bit out of date, so use this instead:
[Parallels under construction]
Also the linked maps are a bit out of date, so use this instead:
[Parallels under construction]
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Damn, Poor Mexico. I kinda liked the Rump US as Vichy France more, but I do like the Golden Circle better as a name for the Burgundians.I think it would help if the TL-191 TNO had elements of Fatherland, since we kinda need an OFN equvilent. This could be achieved by having Germany defeat France and stalemate Britain, but CSA wins in the South and a superbomb is used to force Germany to the peace table before it could attack Russia. So we'd have CSA vs. Russia vs. Mittleuropa cold war.
Also the linked maps are a bit out of date, so use this instead:
[Parallels under construction]
Confederate States of America Parallels:
Jake Featherston=Adolf Hitler
Ferdinand Koening=Martin Bormann
Nathan Bedford Forrest=Herman Goering
George Wallace=Albert Speer(through he might be a bit more genuinely repentant and maybe express some admiration at the G4 analogue given that he did kinda back down from these views)
George Lincoln Rockwell=Reinhard Heydrich
Lyndon B. Johnson=Helmut Schmidt
Russell Long=Kurt Georg Kiesinger
Strom Thurmond=Baldur von Schirach
JB Stoner=Gerhard Klopfer
Edwin Walker=Ferdinand Schorner
Eldon Edwards=Otto Ernst Remer
Robert W. Welch Jr.=Theodore Oberlander
Gerald L. K. Smith=Heinrich Himmler
Cassius Madison=Markus Wolf(context: here)
Walter Reuther=Willy Brandt
Not sure who would be the Brandt analogue but he'd have to be a southern politician that was really pro desegregation OTL.
Deciding on the Heydrich analogue was the toughest I will say.
More notes
Personally I will say I think Britain fits better as an Italian Empire analogue, and Argentina as Turkey so will diverge from the map a bit there. However, Gran Columbia works well as a Iberian union analogue with the idea that the right wing governments of Columbia, Venezuela and Ecuador of the decided to revive Bolivar's dream as a means of opposing whatever plans Featherston had for them
The main far-left ideology divide for would be between Socialism-Lincolnism(for TNO it's Socialism-Communism, formerly authsoc-libsoc), with Lincolinism being the ML equvilent and many Union politicians radicalizing into Lincolinism, through there is a divide between more authoritarian and more light-handed forms of Lincolnism
Jake Featherston=Adolf Hitler
Ferdinand Koening=Martin Bormann
Nathan Bedford Forrest=Herman Goering
George Wallace=Albert Speer(through he might be a bit more genuinely repentant and maybe express some admiration at the G4 analogue given that he did kinda back down from these views)
George Lincoln Rockwell=Reinhard Heydrich
Lyndon B. Johnson=Helmut Schmidt
Russell Long=Kurt Georg Kiesinger
Strom Thurmond=Baldur von Schirach
JB Stoner=Gerhard Klopfer
Edwin Walker=Ferdinand Schorner
Eldon Edwards=Otto Ernst Remer
Robert W. Welch Jr.=Theodore Oberlander
Gerald L. K. Smith=Heinrich Himmler
Cassius Madison=Markus Wolf(context: here)
Walter Reuther=Willy Brandt
Not sure who would be the Brandt analogue but he'd have to be a southern politician that was really pro desegregation OTL.
Deciding on the Heydrich analogue was the toughest I will say.
More notes
Personally I will say I think Britain fits better as an Italian Empire analogue, and Argentina as Turkey so will diverge from the map a bit there. However, Gran Columbia works well as a Iberian union analogue with the idea that the right wing governments of Columbia, Venezuela and Ecuador of the decided to revive Bolivar's dream as a means of opposing whatever plans Featherston had for them
The main far-left ideology divide for would be between Socialism-Lincolnism(for TNO it's Socialism-Communism, formerly authsoc-libsoc), with Lincolinism being the ML equvilent and many Union politicians radicalizing into Lincolinism, through there is a divide between more authoritarian and more light-handed forms of Lincolnism
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A List of US Warlords by analogue:
Note: See map here to see where they likely are
Sablin-Howard Zinn(converted to Lincolnism rather than anarchism, but interprets it in a more libertarian light)
Yagoda-J. Edgar Hoover(converted to Lincolnism)
Bessonov-Frank Zeidler(converted to Lincolnism)
Matkovsky-Seward Collins(lifespan extended)
Rodzaevsky-Crommelin
WerBell-Muller
Petlin-William F. Cassidy
Chita Monarchists-Various Neo-Remembranceists, but aligned closer towards Russia rather than Germany, viewing Germany as having "abandoned" their ally in the 2GW, they view Lincolnism and the socialist movement as having done more harm than good for America and are led by Joseph McCarthy
Vytka monarchists-Neo-Republicans, with McGovern representing the libdems, Rockfeller representing the condems and William F. Buckley Jr representing the Solidarists
Poroshkin-Carl Spaatz
Shushkin-Wallace F. Bennett
Galanskov-Noam Chomsky
Dmitry Karbyshev-Daniel McArthur(Owing to him being labeled a fascist in the TL-191 mod)
Dimitri Yezhov-Thomas S. Power(will live past 1970 ttl)
Batov-William Westmoreland
Rokossovsky-Ironhewer/Eisenower
Kaganovich-Earl Browder
Khrushchev-John Gates
Gutrum Vagner-Francis Parker Yockey
Oktan-Orville W. Roundtree(Pelley propagandist OTL)
Velimir-Madole(explanation here)
Voroshilov-Morrell(converted to Lincolnism)
Zhukov-Omar Bradley(converted to Lincolnism)
Nikolay Ryzhkov-Gil Green
Yakolev-Scoop Jackson
Mikhail Suslov-Gus Hall
Bukharina-Joshua Blackford
Zhadanov-J. Robert Oppenheimer
Igor Shafervich-Samuel L. Blumenfeld
Ivan Serov-Lyndon Larouche
Sergey Taboritsky-George H. Armstrong
Note: See map here to see where they likely are
Sablin-Howard Zinn(converted to Lincolnism rather than anarchism, but interprets it in a more libertarian light)
Yagoda-J. Edgar Hoover(converted to Lincolnism)
Bessonov-Frank Zeidler(converted to Lincolnism)
Matkovsky-Seward Collins(lifespan extended)
Rodzaevsky-Crommelin
WerBell-Muller
Petlin-William F. Cassidy
Chita Monarchists-Various Neo-Remembranceists, but aligned closer towards Russia rather than Germany, viewing Germany as having "abandoned" their ally in the 2GW, they view Lincolnism and the socialist movement as having done more harm than good for America and are led by Joseph McCarthy
Vytka monarchists-Neo-Republicans, with McGovern representing the libdems, Rockfeller representing the condems and William F. Buckley Jr representing the Solidarists
Poroshkin-Carl Spaatz
Shushkin-Wallace F. Bennett
Galanskov-Noam Chomsky
Dmitry Karbyshev-Daniel McArthur(Owing to him being labeled a fascist in the TL-191 mod)
Dimitri Yezhov-Thomas S. Power(will live past 1970 ttl)
Batov-William Westmoreland
Rokossovsky-Ironhewer/Eisenower
Kaganovich-Earl Browder
Khrushchev-John Gates
Gutrum Vagner-Francis Parker Yockey
Oktan-Orville W. Roundtree(Pelley propagandist OTL)
Velimir-Madole(explanation here)
Voroshilov-Morrell(converted to Lincolnism)
Zhukov-Omar Bradley(converted to Lincolnism)
Nikolay Ryzhkov-Gil Green
Yakolev-Scoop Jackson
Mikhail Suslov-Gus Hall
Bukharina-Joshua Blackford
Zhadanov-J. Robert Oppenheimer
Igor Shafervich-Samuel L. Blumenfeld
Ivan Serov-Lyndon Larouche
Sergey Taboritsky-George H. Armstrong
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Hmm. Maybe the British break away over disagreements regarding Canada with Featherston, and decide to form their own bloc with Gran Colombia and South America. Eventually, Britain shifts over to the Germans and joins the European Community.
Vonsiatsky or Matkovsky could be Ino on that note as well with a longer-living Baidalakov as Kido.
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Speaking of Britain, here's the TL-191 analogues for Britain and New England
Britain:
Ciano-Anthony Eden
Silver Shirts Conspiracy Plotters-Oswald Mosley, AK Chesterson, William Joyce, John Beckett(context, should note Scorza is getting cut)
Aldo Moro-Jo Grimond
Nenni-Harold Wilson
Berulinger-Bill Alexander
Giuseppe Sagrat-Peter Shore
Almirante-Robert Arthur James Gascoyne-Cecil, 5th Marquess of Salisbury
Piano Solo coup instigator-Bernard Montgomery(called "operation Solo Recital" here)
New England--Government
Alec Douglas-Home-Joseph Kennedy
Harold MacMillian-Robert Kennedy
Margaret Thatcher-John F. Kennedy
AK Chesterson-Charles Coughlin
New England--Resistance
George Jellicoe-Philip H. Hoff
Harold Wilson-Michael Harrington
Reg Birch-Michael Parenti(a bit young but fits the dogmatic Communist part)
Bill Alexander-Dalmer Berg
The idea here is that New England is run by the Kennedy family dynasty, who rely on the South for protection, with Coughlin wanting to "freedomize" the place.
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For Germany, an ATL version of the CDU could be the Republican-Democrats equivalent with the Center and Left-NPP equivalent being the SPD and the FR-NPP and Yockey equivalent being the DVLP?
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Could be a massive big tent "National Unity" coalition, with the SPD, Zentrum and the CDU as different wings:
R-Ds-National Unity Coalition
Bennett-Erich Mende
LBJ-Ludwig Erhard
RFK-Helmut Schmidt
Michael Harrington-Herbert Frahm/Willy Brandt
George Wallace-Kurt Georg Kiesinger
Strom Thurmond-Adolf Von Thadden
Robert McNamara-Helmut Kohl
NPP-Der Querfront-Weird electoral coalition of DNVP and IDSP
NPP-C-Independent Social Democratic Party
NPP-FR-DNVP
NPP-L-Independent Social Democrats(Marxist-Lincolnist/Willichite Wing)
Gus Hall-Erich Honecker
NPP-Y-DNVP(Remerites)
Francis Parker Yockey-Otto Ernst Remer
Civil Rights Issue-Autonomy and fair treatment for the colonies, with the National Unity Coalition being amblivent on it and Der Querfront being VERY split on it