What would a Taiping-ruled China look like?

[jerseyguy]

Hong Xiuquan's combination of heterodox christianity and social reforms created a massive following, and his rebellion captured most of central China at one point.
If he managed to defeat the Qing, would he found a new dynasty or create a theocratic republic with himself as supreme leader?

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

It would probably be a new dynasty- IOTL Hong Xiuquan's position did pass to his son after his death.

 

[Dingus Khan]

I wonder how long this "Taiping Dynasty" would last until it gets replaced by yet another imperial dynasty, or gets completely overthrown in an alternate republican revolution.

 

[jerseyguy]

I wonder how long this "Taiping Dynasty" would last until it gets replaced by yet another imperial dynasty, or gets completely overthrown in an alternate republican revolution.

The Taiping also attempted to socialize farmland and suppress private commerce in the areas they ruled, so a Taiping China might've ended up combining elements of christian theocracy, proto-maoist agrarian socialism, and Boxer rebellion-esque anti-imperial nationalism.

 

[Word Bearer]

What what, Hong Kong and Weihei under threat? Well in China it's good to depose an Emperor from time to time.

 

[123456789blaaa]

The Taiping also attempted to socialize farmland and suppress private commerce in the areas they ruled, so a Taiping China might've ended up combining elements of christian theocracy, proto-maoist agrarian socialism, and Boxer rebellion-esque anti-imperial nationalism.

They abandoned those ideas pretty quickly. The administration was fairly normal after the initial spurt of revolutionary zeal. See my post here

 

[jerseyguy]

They abandoned those ideas pretty quickly. The administration was fairly normal after the initial spurt of revolutionary zeal. See my post here

Good post, that condensed a lot of info very well

 

[123456789blaaa]

Good post, that condensed a lot of info very well

Thanks. As for your OP, there would be a new dynasty with Hong or his son as the new Emperor. Hong believed he was granted the title of Heavenly King (Tianwang) from God and acted as a king over the territory he ruled (albeit getting extremely reclusive later on and leaving the actual ruling to Hong Rengan). There was no conception of a "republic".

If you have any specific questions, I can try to answer them. I've read a couple of academic books on the Taiping.

 

[Jared]

China under the Taipings would look heavenly.

 

[Tyler96]

There's a lot of variables in play...

• To what extent the Taiping have moderated their views.
  • Obviously, the more moderate they are the less likely they are to alienate their new subjects.
  • If they're still going on about land reform the gentry will be uneasy, and if they're going around smashing traditional temples they'll earn the enmity of the peasants.
• How the western powers feel about things and what Taiping/Western relations look like.
  • E.g. Taiping policies on opium, how they treat western envoys and missionaries etc.
• When the Taiping have defeated the Qing-
  • The later it is, the more China has been trashed by war (with all the attendant economic and social effects).
  • Relations with the west could be effected by whether this is before or after the Second Opium War.
  • If Yang Xiuqing is still around that probably isn't great for the stability of the Taiping regime.
• How the other rebellions are going (Nian, Panthay, Dungan, Miao) and how they interact with the new Taiping regime.
  • Whether there's still members of the Qing dynasty floating around to cause trouble.

Honestly, I'm not sure the Taiping have the manpower and organisational capacity to properly assert control over all of China, at least in the short term.

Their support also isn't very broad-based, and their best bet is watering down their extreme views and presenting themselves as just another change of dynasty (i.e. Talk about the Mandate of Heaven and getting rid of the Manchu, rather than all the religious stuff). Whether Hong "God's my Daddy" Xiuquan would be at all amenable to this change of direction is another matter entirely, and I'd have severe doubts about the stability of any regime with the likes of Xiuquan at its head.

 

[123456789blaaa]

There's a lot of variables in play...

• To what extent the Taiping have moderated their views.
  • Obviously, the more moderate they are the less likely they are to alienate their new subjects.
  • If they're still going on about land reform the gentry will be uneasy, and if they're going around smashing traditional temples they'll earn the enmity of the peasants.
• How the western powers feel about things and what Taiping/Western relations look like.
  • E.g. Taiping policies on opium, how they treat western envoys and missionaries etc.
• When the Taiping have defeated the Qing-
  • The later it is, the more China has been trashed by war (with all the attendant economic and social effects).
  • Relations with the west could be effected by whether this is before or after the Second Opium War.
  • If Yang Xiuqing is still around that probably isn't great for the stability of the Taiping regime.
• How the other rebellions are going (Nian, Panthay, Dungan, Miao) and how they interact with the new Taiping regime.
  • Whether there's still members of the Qing dynasty floating around to cause trouble.

Honestly, I'm not sure the Taiping have the manpower and organisational capacity to properly assert control over all of China, at least in the short term.

Their support also isn't very broad-based, and their best bet is watering down their extreme views and presenting themselves as just another change of dynasty (i.e. Talk about the Mandate of Heaven and getting rid of the Manchu, rather than all the religious stuff). Whether Hong "God's my Daddy" Xiuquan would be at all amenable to this change of direction is another matter entirely, and I'd have severe doubts about the stability of any regime with the likes of Xiuquan at its head.

They did moderate their views OTL. Read my link above. Furthermore, I'm not aware of them experiencing any real negative effects from their idol smashing and taiping christianity in general was a tremendous source of zeal and morale. I don't really see why they don't have the manpower and organization to control china. After 1859, the only military force capable of standing up to them was Zheng Guofans Xiang army. Remove that and there is simply no indigenous chinese force capable of standing up to the Taiping army. Remember that they get an influx of recruits that join them every time they conquer an area. They already control the heartland of China in Jiangnan. With Beijing in taiping hands, I'm not sure what could stop them besides a full on war from the western powers. Their administration was run competently enough.

 

[Richard V]

There would be much parallels with Maoist China.

 

[Tyler96]

I don't really see why they don't have the manpower and organization to control china. After 1859, the only military force capable of standing up to them was Zheng Guofans Xiang army. Remove that and there is simply no indigenous chinese force capable of standing up to the Taiping army. Remember that they get an influx of recruits that join them every time they conquer an area. They already control the heartland of China in Jiangnan.

But in the short term there'd be multiple things to deal with, yeah? Trying to calm down the countryside, stamp out any embers of pro-Qing resistance, and confronting the multiple ongoing rebellions- even if the Taiping have the resources to deal with all of these and are secure enough in their new conquests to embark on far-reaching campaigns, wouldn't it take a while to calm everything down?

 

[123456789blaaa]

But in the short term there'd be multiple things to deal with, yeah? Trying to calm down the countryside, stamp out any embers of pro-Qing resistance, and confronting the multiple ongoing rebellions- even if the Taiping have the resources to deal with all of these and are secure enough in their new conquests to embark on far-reaching campaigns, wouldn't it take a while to calm everything down?

Well it would basically be mopping up at that point. No rebellion or resistance would actually be able to stand against the immense power of the Taiping for even a bit so it would basically be a matter of how much ground the army could cover. At the absolute maximum I would expect a few years.

 

[ramones1986]

Since most of those involved in the Taiping movement were Hakka, what could be their relationship with other Chinese groups, both northerners and fellow southerners (e.g. Punti/Cantonese)?