What would a Palestinian state have looked like?

I will agree that had there been a Palestinian state of some sort arising out the the 1948 partition, butterflies would make changes in the area. I don't see how this would make the basic structure of the Arab states in the region (Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Trucial States, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt) significantly different. The "Israel threat"and "Palestinian issue" were straw men that the various governments used to varying extents to point the populace outward rather than have them sitting around wondering how badly their own governments were screwing them over. The reality is that Israel as a "regional superpower" was not a reality until the 1967 war (if then). Frankly Israel after the War of Independence was still economically and militarily weak, and a combination of Israeli "motivation" (never again) and severe structural issues with Arab militaries was what kept Israel intact. Israeli successes in 1956 need to be seen in the reality of basically a one front war and being fought in conjunction with the French and British.

Beyond the Israel/Palestine issue, local Arab governments used other distractors such as "colonialism" and "imperialism" (as the USA replaced the colonial powers as the boogeyman), or internal ethnoreligious divisions (Kurds, Druse, Christians, Sunni/Shi'a depending on the country). Prior to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the drawing of the modern borders, areas not under direct Ottoman control had been absolute monarchies/tribal based governance. Former Ottoman areas that became independent/organized continued this or were occupied by the UK/France and once the colonial powers left fell in to the general pattern. As monarchies were overthrown (Egypt, Iraq, Libya) they were replaced by strongmen and have subsequently suffered coups of various sorts.

Historically countries going from absolute monarchy or the equivalent to some sort of liberal democracy in one jump is pretty much unheard of. There is usually a transition period (short or long) and there are several conditions needed for this transition including a (relatively) educated population, a mass of illiterates is not a good foundation, and a cultural acceptance of the idea that democracy where 50.1% win does not mean they get to crap all over the 49.9%. When folks point out Germany going from Nazis to democracy, or democracy in the former Warsaw Pact they are comparing apples and oranges. Germany, and most of the WP countries had democracies prior to WWII, although in many cases much less than "liberal". Some of what is happening in Poland and Hungary shows the fragility of this.

IMHO as long as there is an Israel in the former mandate of Palestine, no matter what the boundaries, the elimination of Israel will continue to be a rallying cry to distract Arabs governed by strong men/absolutist monarchies. If the Arabs succeed in winning the 1948 war, and throwing most of the Jews out, saving perhaps some small ultra-orthodox communities (maybe), the details of borders and leaders may change but expecting that in 2019 any of the regional states would resemble Jeffersonian democracy in any aspect is a non-starter. Non-Jewish ethnoreligious minorities are still going to be marginalized at best, and corruption/baksheesh and kleptocracy will still be there. Given the horrendous misrule in Gaza and the West Bank by the current leaders, why should you expect better. The reality is that in spite of the limited resources and difficulties, fully acknowledged, the folks in these areas are much more miserable than they could/should be even if they still have the "drive the Israelis in to the sea" attitude.
 
from 1967 until now, Israel has had the opportunity to create the Palestinian state.

Yeah, but then this happened.
methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fe1fe17da-9f12-11e8-9371-eed14903bc84.jpg
 
The reality is that Israel as a "regional superpower" was not a reality until the 1967 war (if then). Frankly Israel after the War of Independence was still economically and militarily weak, and a combination of Israeli "motivation" (never again) and severe structural issues with Arab militaries was what kept Israel intact. Israeli successes in 1956 need to be seen in the reality of basically a one front war and being fought in conjunction with the French and British.

IIRC the Israelis only needed help, or preferred not to take a chance, against the EAF. The ground war pretty much resembled the campaign of '67. Heck even in '48, as Allon later showed, Israel could've achieved a lot more.

IMHO as long as there is an Israel in the former mandate of Palestine, no matter what the boundaries, the elimination of Israel will continue to be a rallying cry to distract Arabs governed by strong men/absolutist monarchies.

What about Egypt since 1982? Under Mubarack and Sissi it was/is hardly a democracy but relations with Israel remained pacific. Btw while Egyptian (and certain other) governments have recently toned down anti-Israel rhetoric, the arab masses are less favorable to the idea of peace with Israel. I also recall that in 1972-73 Sadat, although preferring a political solution, made a number of bellicose speeches intended to keep the masses quiet so he could pursue diplomacy, or until he was ready for war.
 
Egypt had/has a peace treaty with Israel by 1982, and that did not end well for Sadat personally you might recall. It is also important to look at what Arab leaders say in English to foreign leaders and the press and what they say in Arabic either directly to the "people" or through the controlled press. The former is gloss and irrelevant, the latter is what truly matters. One reason that relations between Israel and Egypt remained peaceful was the fact that the USA had replaced the USSR as the patron, and had Egypt drifted towards war with Israel the flow of money and goods would have been cut off. More recently, Egypt (correctly) sees the threat from Islamic radicals as much much more worrisome for internal stability than any "Israeli" threat. Furthermore the multinational force in the Sinai, with the USA the largest presence, ensures that Egyptian military forces in the area are restricted, and have only been allowed to be increased with Israeli approval to deal with the aforementioned Islamist issue - and those folks have happily attacked Egyptian troops.

I agree that, with the exception of the Jordanian Arab Legion, by the end of the 1948 war the Israeli forces were superior to the Arab ones in effectiveness although still very much inferior in armor and aviation (numbers/equipment). Had in 1956 the Israelis faced a three front war instead of a one front war and had not had British and French forces also involved, their situation would have been quite different. Not necessarily a "loss" but not such a big win.
 
I mean - how did an event in Munich convince Israel to take actions to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state in territory they controlled?

Hmmm how indeed...

One does not reward terrorists for slaughtering your people. The only thing that folding to their demands does is encourage them to do it again. What would their next demand be? The expulsion of all jews from Israel?
 
Hmmm how indeed...

One does not reward terrorists for slaughtering your people. The only thing that folding to their demands does is encourage them to do it again. What would their next demand be? The expulsion of all jews from Israel?

So Israel never initially intended to make Palestine independent, and then Munich happened and they had an excuse for this policy?

Or Israel did intend to make Palestine independent, and then Munich happened and they decided that an appropriate punishment for the Palestinians would be to prevent them from having an independent state?
 
@Petros >Peter Fergus< : The connection was that it became glaringly obvious (1972) that the goal was as stated in the PLO charter, the elimination of Israel period, and the means were terror and deliberate killing of innocents. The folks who did this were celebrated throughout the Arab world, and they, as well as subsequent folks like the Achille Lauro group (1985), were offered orgiven refuge and protection in various Arab countries.

Had the Israeli offered in the wake of the 1967 war, a Palestinian state with some border adjustments and some sort of Muslim control of the dome of the Rock, with limitations of the military of Palestine, would that have been accepted as a fine settlement? Agreeing that the movement of roughly equal numbers of Arabs out of what was then Israel and Jews out of Arab countries would constitute a population exchange and end the matter. Perhaps some family reunification for some Arabs, although you won't get many if any Jews back to Arab countries they left. Before you say "yes, of course" remember this is pretty much the deal Arafat rejected in 2000, where 97% of the territory taken by Israel in 1967 was to be returned to Palestinian control as their state. If you can find a situation where the party that was victorious in not one but three wars against a given enemy offered to make such a return let us know. You won't find one in the 19th or 20th centuries that is for sure. I am not hearing that the Czech Republic has said "I'm sorry" to the Seudetendeutsch who were expelled/left after WWII and said "come home". Or Poland, or Russia/Ukraine/Byelorussia, or Romania, or Turkey, you get the idea.

BTW, in spite of all sorts of promises the PLO has NEVER rewritten its charter which calls for the total elimination of Israel.
 
Egypt had/has a peace treaty with Israel by 1982, and that did not end well for Sadat personally you might recall.

I don't know if Sadat was killed for making peace or for (allegedly) killing military officers via a staged accident--about which I've blogged ("The martyrdom of Defense Minister Badawy").

One reason that relations between Israel and Egypt remained peaceful was the fact that the USA had replaced the USSR as the patron,

But not until about a decade after the peace treaty.

and had Egypt drifted towards war with Israel the flow of money and goods would have been cut off.

True, but Cairo sacrificed a lot of arab aid by making peace. I recall c 1980 the arabs including Saudis offered Egypt $100 billion to repudiate peace with Israel. Sadat refused.

More recently, Egypt (correctly) sees the threat from Islamic radicals as much much more worrisome for internal stability than any "Israeli" threat.

For the moment, but Egypt still continues to invest a lot in conventional weapons that are almost certainly intended to deal with Israel if necessary. It was sort of funny when an Egyptian spokesman, seeking to conceal this, claimed the S-300 was intended to deal with Iran or terrorists.


I agree that, with the exception of the Jordanian Arab Legion, by the end of the 1948 war the Israeli forces were superior to the Arab ones in effectiveness although still very much inferior in armor and aviation (numbers/equipment). Had in 1956 the Israelis faced a three front war instead of a one front war and had not had British and French forces also involved, their situation would have been quite different. Not necessarily a "loss" but not such a big win.

Maybe but in '67 the defensive deployment of arab forces enabled the IDF to initially focus on Egypt, or crush arab national armies essentially one after another. The same situation probably would've existed in '56, had other frontline states been involved.
 
Last edited:
@sloreck

They had a chance to use the occupation to attempt to create an independent Palestine that wouldn't or couldn't threaten Israel, but Palestinian terrorists forced Israel's hand, and after Munich they had no choice but to use the occupation to prevent any Palestinian state?
 
@sloreck

They had a chance to use the occupation to attempt to create an independent Palestine that wouldn't or couldn't threaten Israel, but Palestinian terrorists forced Israel's hand, and after Munich they had no choice but to use the occupation to prevent any Palestinian state?

Perhaps if they wanted a state so damn bad, they shouldn't have resorted to killing innocent civilians as their first and only tactic?
 
Perhaps if they wanted a state so damn bad, they shouldn't have resorted to killing innocent civilians as their first and only tactic?

How could this compel Israel to begin making settlements? Perhaps if they wanted a more peaceful occupation, they shouldn't have immediately began colonizing the occupied territories.
 
How could this compel Israel to begin making settlements? Perhaps if they wanted a more peaceful occupation, they shouldn't have immediately began colonizing the occupied territories.

Well if you want something, a good idea is to not antagonize the only people who can give it to you.
 
And peacefully accept some amount of colonization until those people decide they've had enough? Certainly it's a bad idea to antagonize those kind of people.

So you're advocating for the endless murder of innocents in the hope that MAYBE the Israeli's will decide enough is enough. And won't just go "Oh man, there's no way in hell we're going to bend over to the demands these terrorists make now."
 
After the 1967 War the PLO was the preeminent Palestinian political organization and recognized by the Arab world as THE spokesman for Palestinians. It was, after all, Arafat who addressed the UN on behalf of the Palestinians (and wearing his pistol belt and holster doing it). Up until the day he died Arafat turned down any and all compromises with Israel, most famously in 2000. While, in statements to the foreigners, as opposed to what he said in Arabic, he would occasionally denounce this or that egregious act of terror (like the Achille Lauro) he and his organization supported and organized such attacks. Short of committing suicide by retreating to the 1967 lines and opening its borders to any and all who claimed refugee status nothing was going to satisfy the PLO as a starting point. Of course, the PLO charter clearly stated the ultimate goal.

I would point out that in modern history (since the Treaty of Westphalia - 1648) occupying forces of a victorious country do not leave until there is a peace settlement and treaty. Not since the 17th century. If you lose, there are various penalties - reparations, loss of territory, restrictions on your military are only the most common, population exchanges are also common. Part of the ongoing problem in the Middle East is that for some reason, people expect the Israel-Palestine conflict to be different from every other conflict in modern history (including those since 1948 elsewhere) in terms of how things go with war termination.(1) I have my opinion on why this is so, which I will keep to myself for the moment.

(1) I would call the attention of all to the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, where Pakistan ended up losing half its territory (East Pakistan) not to a revolution but due to the Indian Army which then facilitated the creation of Bangladesh.Just one example...
 
So you're advocating for the endless murder of innocents in the hope that MAYBE the Israeli's will decide enough is enough. And won't just go "Oh man, there's no way in hell we're going to bend over to their demands now." Good to know how righteous your cause is.

Maybe the Israeli's will decide they've gotten enough settlements, or that the occupation has gone on long enough?

After the 1967 War the PLO was the preeminent Palestinian political organization and recognized by the Arab world as THE spokesman for Palestinians. It was, after all, Arafat who addressed the UN on behalf of the Palestinians (and wearing his pistol belt and holster doing it). Up until the day he died Arafat turned down any and all compromises with Israel, most famously in 2000. While, in statements to the foreigners, as opposed to what he said in Arabic, he would occasionally denounce this or that egregious act of terror (like the Achille Lauro) he and his organization supported and organized such attacks. Short of committing suicide by retreating to the 1967 lines and opening its borders to any and all who claimed refugee status nothing was going to satisfy the PLO as a starting point. Of course, the PLO charter clearly stated the ultimate goal.

I would point out that in modern history (since the Treaty of Westphalia - 1648) occupying forces of a victorious country do not leave until there is a peace settlement and treaty. Not since the 17th century. If you lose, there are various penalties - reparations, loss of territory, restrictions on your military are only the most common, population exchanges are also common. Part of the ongoing problem in the Middle East is that for some reason, people expect the Israel-Palestine conflict to be different from every other conflict in modern history (including those since 1948 elsewhere) in terms of how things go with war termination. I have my opinion on why this is so, which I will keep to myself for the moment.

And this is why Israel had no choice but to start planting settlements in the occupied territories? Maintaining the occupation without immediately beginning settlement programs, maintaining an occupation with an end-goal of creating an independent Palestine, would have been tantamount to national suicide?
 
None of this is relevant to the thread topic, how would the region have developed if the partition plan went through.

I apologize for furthering the derail of this thread, and won't do it again. There is an Israel thread for this argument in Chat.
 
Top