What would a negotiated peace in 1917 look like?

Let’s say the PoD is someone convincing the Kaiser that unrestricted submarine warfare would be a mistake and Willy forces his military to not pursue the strategy in 1917. No Zimmerman Telegram is sent either. This results in America staying out of the war. With America out, the Entente run out of money in the summer. They also lose out on a moral boost. Without those factors, Italy or Russia feel as though they cannot stay in the war and tell the rest of the Entente they will have to drop out soon. This causes the Entente to believe victory is impossible, and it is for the best they go negotiate together sometime in the Summer of 1917.

The Central Powers have lost Germany’s colonies and much of the Ottoman Empire, Austria is desperate for peace, and they are not far removed from the Turnip Winter. Russia on the other hand is imploding, France has recently had their army mutiny and still has Germany occupying much of their country, Italy has been largely ineffective, Serbia/Romania/Belgium have been overrun, and Britain is broke.

What would these negotiations yield? Would they find peace unreachable?
 
The ottomans would lose Hejaz, Yemen, much of Mesopotamia (but not Mosul) and much of Palestine. They may even lose land to the Russians or a status quo antebellum, depending on whether or not the Germans want to sacrifice some gains to bail out their ally. The ottomans could gain the Dodecanese back from the Italians and maybe some of the Aegean islands from Greece, although this is less likely. The Bulgarians could gain land from Serbia, and Romania, but it is less likely they will gain anything from Greece. Austria Hungary will gain land like otl from Romania. Austria might ask for some similar border revisions with Italy but a Status quo antebellum is more likely. Serbia, Montenegro, and Albania are a bit tricky, so is Belgium, since Belgium is Britain's primary war aim, but is also strongly desired by Germany. Germany has lost all colonies, no doubt. Luxembourg is annexed by Germany. There may be sight border revisions in France in Germanys favor, or again, status quo antebellum. Russia could lose Poland, Lithuania and Courland. Again, the negotiations would rest on the status of Belgium and Serbia.
 
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Let’s say the PoD is someone convincing the Kaiser that unrestricted submarine warfare would be a mistake and Willy forces his military to not pursue the strategy in 1917. No Zimmerman Telegram is sent either. This results in America staying out of the war. With America out, the Entente run out of money in the summer. They also lose out on a moral boost. Without those factors, Italy or Russia feel as though they cannot stay in the war and tell the rest of the Entente they will have to drop out soon. This causes the Entente to believe victory is impossible, and it is for the best they go negotiate together sometime in the Summer of 1917.

The Central Powers have lost Germany’s colonies and much of the Ottoman Empire, Austria is desperate for peace, and they are not far removed from the Turnip Winter. Russia on the other hand is imploding, France has recently had their army mutiny and still has Germany occupying much of their country, Italy has been largely ineffective, Serbia/Romania/Belgium have been overrun, and Britain is broke.

What would these negotiations yield? Would they find peace unreachable?

The Central Powers get whatever they want, essentially. The Entente war effort completely collapses without American intervention, with mass starvation breaking out before the end of the year and their respective forces are defunct by June at the latest.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
The Central Powers get whatever they want, essentially. The Entente war effort completely collapses without American intervention, with mass starvation breaking out before the end of the year and their respective forces are defunct by June at the latest.

But what is interesting is that the CPs were in no position to go on the offensive on any land front from January through July 1917. The offensives they did do were limited counteroffensives in Russia (Riga) and Italy (Caporetto). The CPs are not in a great position to impose terms without being able to have highly successful offensives on land.

Also, the Entente shipping situation is easier than OTL with less submarine warfare, even if the financial situation is harder.

Without the Americans, are the Entente going to be going for their OTL plan of offensives on all fronts (starting with Nivelle's disaster?).
 
Where does the political will to accept compromises after years of bloodshed and promises of a total victory come from?

The Dynamic Duo in Germany won't accept compromises as long as it seems like they are winning.
 
Where does the political will to accept compromises after years of bloodshed and promises of a total victory come from?

The Dynamic Duo in Germany won't accept compromises as long as it seems like they are winning.
Their power wasn't unlimited. Especially in 1917 as opposed to 1918 and even they can figure out that if A-H signs a separate peace Germany is screwed.

Germany has lost all colonies, no doubt.
That's too simple reasoning. Any negotiated peace in 1917 like the OP proposed or any other kind of "peace by exhaustion in 1917", means two things:
1. Germany cannot force the UK to leave it's colonies by force of arms.
2. The UK cannot force Germany to leave Belgium and northeastern France by force of arms.
Unless they want to accept Germany annexing everything it occupies the UK will have to give back some of the colonies. Tit for tat. If they don't not only will no one else in Europe ever ally with them against Germany again, they themselves would rather have Germany have navel bases in Africa than across the channel.

Germany has lost all colonies, no doubt. Luxembourg is annexed by germany. There may be sight border revisions in France in Germanys favor, or again, status quo antebellum. Russia could lose poland, Lithuania and courland.
Luxembourg almost certainly. It's something everyone else would be very willing to sacrifice for part of the occupied colonies. France could go either way. They certainly wont get back A-L. Russia will loose Poland, probably with some guarantee that it may never become part of Germany or A-H. Lithuania and courland are a matter of horse-trading.

What would these negotiations yield? Would they find peace unreachable?
They might go on for a very long while. Some will threaten to walk out.
But nonetheless I am actually very sure they'll succeed in the end. Because once the guns fall silent and the cease-fire stars, all the warring powers will find it very difficult to persuade their soldiers to "go over the top" again.
None of their enemies are demanding unconditional surrender, no one's homeland is under threat of total occupation. Even Versailles-like conditions wont be on the table. So whoever wants to resume fighting will do so with an army that might very well mutiny, if told do to so for some colonies they don't care about, or some 1% of border territory.
 
But what is interesting is that the CPs were in no position to go on the offensive on any land front from January through July 1917. The offensives they did do were limited counteroffensives in Russia (Riga) and Italy (Caporetto). The CPs are not in a great position to impose terms without being able to have highly successful offensives on land.

Also, the Entente shipping situation is easier than OTL with less submarine warfare, even if the financial situation is harder.

Without the Americans, are the Entente going to be going for their OTL plan of offensives on all fronts (starting with Nivelle's disaster?).

They'll be able to impose terms because the Entente armies are going to rapidly melt away without American support:

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"On 11 December Bérenger reported that France was dependent on its Allies for supplies and transport of oil. Three days later Clemenceau attended a meeting of the Comité Général du Pétrole. The immediate need was for tanker tonnage to bring oil to France; the next day Clemenceau issued a plea to President Wilson for extra tanker tonnage. There was a risk that a 'shortage of gasoline would cause the sudden paralysis of our armies and drive us all into an unacceptable peace.' French stocks of gasoline were currently 28,000 tons, compared with a target minimum of 44,000 and consumption of 30,000 tons per month. Wilson must get the US oil companies to allocate an additional 100,000 tons of tankers to France. These could come from the Pacific and from new construction. Clemenceau's final lines to Wilson were: "There is for the Allies a question of public salvation. If they are determined not to lose the war, the fighting French must, by the hour of supreme Germanic blow, have large supplies of gasoline which is, in the battle of tomorrow, as necessary as blood."
___
"Earlier in the month Sir Albert Stanley, the President of the Board of Trade, had pointed out that UK petrol stocks were declining because demand exceeded imports. Shortages of shipping meant that imports in 1917 were likely to be lower than in 1916. Civilian consumption of 10,000,000 gallons per month could be reduced to 8,000,000. Any further cuts would severely disrupt the life and commerce of the country. Military use at home had to be restricted; the War Office and the Admiralty were both taking measures to economise on the use of petrol."
___
"Admiral Sir John Jellicoe, the First Sea Lord, informed the War Cabinet on 24 May that naval oil stocks amounted to less than three month's supply. Five large tankers had been sunk during the last month. The cruising of the Grand Fleet had consequently been restricted. In early June Tothill said in a memorandum that: '[t]he situation as regards oil is critical. Under present circumstances, oilers must be considered the most valuable vessels afloat. They should be convoyed.' On 30 June he warned the War Cabinet that stocks of naval oil fuel had fallen because of delays in the completion of tankers, losses of tankers, greater activity by oil burning vessels and an increase in the number of warships burning oil. Further supplies of oil had been requested from the USA, but had not yet been received. Long was in contact with Lord Northcliffe, Head of the British War Mission to the USA, over this issue. In Britain the construction and repair of tankers had been speeded up. The speed of oil-burning warships had been restricted, 'except in the gravest emergency and except in the Southern part of the North Sea.' Fleet movements were to be as restricted as much as possible. Tankers were to be convoyed both on route to and from Britain and on coastal passage and to be escorted in the submarine area. The number of tankers with the Fleet was to be reduced to the minimum possible number. Oil fuel was being imported from America in the double bottoms of cargo ships. Home production was being increased; this could have only a small impact in the immediate future."
 

nbcman

Donor
The ottomans would lose hejaz, palestine, much of mesopotamia (but not mosul) and much of palestine. They may even lose land to the russians or a status quo antebellum, depending on whether or not the Germans want to sacrifice some gains to bail out their ally. The ottomans could gain the dodacenese back from the Italians and maybe some of the aegean islands from greece, although this is less likely. The bulgarians could gain land from serbia, and romania, but it is less likely they will gain anything from greece. Austria Hungary will gain land like otl from romania. Austria might ask for some similar border revisions with italy but a Status quo antebellum is more likely. Serbia, montengro and albania is a bit tricky, so is belgium, since belgium is britians primary war aim, but is also strongly desired by Germany. Germany has lost all colonies, no doubt. Luxembourg is annexed by germany. There may be sight border revisions in France in Germanys favor, or again, status quo antebellum. Russia could lose poland, Lithuania and courland. Again, the negotiations would rest on the status of belgium and serbia.
Without the US entering in April 1917, would Greece declare war in June? Or would the CPs force the Greeks to hand over territory even though they weren't at war with them?
 
And this is the scenario I am tinkering with. To be honest I find it rather finely balanced, the CPs do not lose but cannot win, the Entente cannot lose but do not win. The only two powers that matter are the UK and Germany, they are the only two that can continue this war and muster the resources for an offensive or offensives to decide things, including losing those and being defeated. France is far tougher than usually given credit for, it can sustain the defense longer than 1917 but is losing all hope of waging any decisive war, same for A-H, it is far more survivable than assumed but is rapidly losing the ability to stay in the war. Frankly I think both Italy and the OE can fight on but are too beholden to their sides to do so and both really have little but status quo to hope for, more likely each faces losing more than they can attain. Both France and the UK actually have more financial resources to tap and without USW find it easier to sustain the war but digging deeper hurts them deeper too. Germany can only win the war by winning it but its resources are tapped, yet on the defensive is virtually immovable. And frankly the ebb and flow on other fronts does little to alter the core friction point, Belgium and Northern France, with the exception that Russia can go separate peace and suddenly unravel any hope of an Entente victory. So I do not find a clear advantage to either side. But tides are still subject to turns.

Germany will annex Luxembourg, the Austro-Italian border likely settles back to pre-war, Russia loses Poland, likely modern Latvia and Lithuania, likely Finland and maybe Western Ukraine and parts of White Russia. A-H gains Serbia, Montenegro and Albania. Bulgaria likely gaining something there too. Romania is lost to the CP. Italy loses the Dodecanese. The OE is all about what the UK wants but is forced to give up. Germany holds the high cards, the UK must give something to gain back independent Belgium and France must add to it to secure Northern France. A-L is securely German with some minor additions likely. Mostly a pre-war border. Frankly only East Africa is of value to London, SWA and the rest are brides to her allies, but here are the cheapest currency. I seriously question if Germany cares but regaining her colonies might be the first step despite it being a trope. I would suspect France is forced to add some stuff around Togo, Kamerun, the Pacific, or China. The UK might need to add a few minor tid-bits such as Walvis Bay or Zanzibar but frankly Britain does not need to give up much, and shouldn't. That includes the Congo, Germany gets no reward for invading Belgium like that despite the tropes. Indeed I see little offered to give Germany such prizes as Indochina or such, most important to Britain will be to mitigate German dominance of the continental economy and to secure some form of naval supremacy. Pride will make Germany seek back its place in China and economics forces her to bargain for the OE.

At best we get a restored Belgium and about 99% pre-war Franco-German borders. At worst we get Germany and A-H expended at Russia's expense and in between the OE goes back to pre-war but less solidly a CP ally. Britain can carve off the OE but why? To share with France? Germany will push back on the Mesopotamian oil and that is the valuable bit. Palestine feels like a prize but does it really do much to secure the Canal? British gains might be on the peninsula but overall I think the OE is not imploded. But I would still not call it status quo antebellum per se. This will be a warped version. At bottom it becomes a bipolar world, the British facing the Germans, Germany grappling with holding together the continent, Russia bursting with chaos, both the OE and A-H fractured, China remaining a frontier all powers struggle over, Africa still subjugated, cracks deepening in the Empire, the home front totally disillusioned, the USA still sleepy, and not one happy face. This peace will be more byzantine than the prelude to war despite surface similarity.

Hardboiled I find that after an armistice some peace must take root, it will be guided by previous Congress like dictates but just as compromised. The alternative is a cold war like divided Europe with a scratched border and occupied places, and maybe we are instead stuck there, Britain undefeatable at sea, Germany entrenched upon the land, an ugly status quo. In the end it will be what Britain gives up to get what it wants more than I think is obvious from the usual Britain cannot be defeated so can do as it pleases tropes. In fact the British Empire cannot be forced but at what cost should it defend anything but its interests? Belgium and France become the front line to harass Germany, Italy too, the OE can be made a murky back and forth, Russia is the key to breaking German hegemony, as is German dependence upon export trade. Britain has levers it must pull because the war really gained her nothing but stronger enemies and less useful allies. Personally I find it more wickedly complicated than if I were to predict OTL and the next 100 years, it looks easier than it is, the better guide is how little must we give up, rather than what can we gain.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I don't know the economic and financial details underpinning this idea, so will for the moment take the OP as a given

In that case, you need an impetus for peace, and presumably that can be found in Caporetto. Without America coming, France and Britain are going to be far more leery of piling in reinforcements of men, guns and ammunition. Cadorna himself thought that Italy might have to come to terms (this would be used to get rid of him afterwards in OTL)

If Italy is forced to do this, especially if Britain and France cannot find the will to send help, then the public in both of those countries is going to let loose their grievances. 1917 was the year of the mutinies in the French army, and of unrest in Britain caused by the overthrow of the Tsar - this would result in the change of royal dynasty's name to Windsor, the anglicisation of royal titles, and the attainting of royals fighting on the German side.

In such a situation, one might posit that Lloyd George and whoever emerges from the chaos in Paris see Italy's request for an armistice as a death knell to the Allies

They still hold the Western Front, and they hold all of Germany's colonies (in essence Von Lettow Vorbeck has abandoned Tanganyika for mobile warfare)
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Everyone throws their greatest hopes into a peace conference. In OTL, Versailles while only based on an Armistice was able to see a harsh peace on Germany because its political structure had been overthrown and most of the military gone home. In this thread's scenario, I cannot see either happening for Britain or France, while Russia remains relatively intact, if in serious turmoil.

As stated by others, it will be a question of bargaining. The politicians will reassert control during an Armistice, and the Kaiser is likely to choose a Chancellor strong enough to get things done. It's possible that Prince Max of Baden's time will come early and have a better legacy

A puppet Polish state has already been established by the Central Powers, and this will certainly be pushed with the aim of a Habsburg king over mostly ex-Russian land.

Germany will be looking to annex Luxembourg and at the very least see the demolition of French fortresses. It might be looking to occupy land in lieu of reparations too, like the French ironfields, agreeing to give them up if France pays a certain amount. Because while this might be to us a peace of exhaustion, to the Germans they are going to be acting as the victors, however precarious that position might be.

Romania is theoretically still in the fight, and probably gets away with no territorial losses, as part of a general quid-pro-quo across the negotiators - for example, Italy will probably get away with no territorial losses either, holding onto the Dodecanese as the Ottomans never took them

Belgium will be restored but the mighty border fortresses will be completely razed and banned from being rebuilt.

Germany will get some of its colonies back - Von Lettow-Vorbeck remains in the field so can claim that Tanganyika fought on. Cameroon and Togoland especially will be up for reclamation, whilst Britain might be willing to throw South Africa under the bus for Namibia's restoration. Losses in the Pacific might stand, however.
 
Outside of the oil issue, starvation was just around the corner for all of the Entente. To quote from Mike Stone:
According to Ambassador Page and others, Britain was in April 1917 within six weeks of running out of wheat, so again a long delay in introducing convoys could have been serious. And in 1918 the Food Administration enabled the US to export three times the normal amounts of breadstuffs, meats and sugar. Presumably most of this went to Allied countries. Stephenson refers to US supplies having seen France and Italy through a "subsistence crisis" in early 1918.

Admiral Sims cabled Navy Secretary Josephus Daniels on April 14, 1917, "Mr Hoover informs me that there is only sufficient grain supply in this
counry for three weeks. This does not include the supply in retail stores." If this is correct (and Hoover in particular was likely to have known) it
suggests that even few _weeks_ delay in US intervention (surely possible assuming no Zimmermann Telegram, or even just a slightly more
stubborn President Wilson) could have put Britain in quite serious trouble.
 

Deleted member 1487

But what is interesting is that the CPs were in no position to go on the offensive on any land front from January through July 1917. The offensives they did do were limited counteroffensives in Russia (Riga) and Italy (Caporetto). The CPs are not in a great position to impose terms without being able to have highly successful offensives on land.

Also, the Entente shipping situation is easier than OTL with less submarine warfare, even if the financial situation is harder.

Without the Americans, are the Entente going to be going for their OTL plan of offensives on all fronts (starting with Nivelle's disaster?).
That is the first time I've heard of Caporetto referred to as a counter offensive, same with Riga.
 

marathag

Banned
Because once the guns fall silent and the cease-fire stars, all the warring powers will find it very difficult to persuade their soldiers to "go over the top" again.
They didn't have to. The British kept up the Blockade after 11/11
From the wiki
blockade was maintained for eight months after the Armistice in November 1918, into the following year of 1919. According to the New Cambridge Modern History food imports into Germany were controlled by the Allies after the Armistice with Germany until Germany signed the Treaty of Versailles in June 1919.[25] From January 1919 to March 1919, Germany refused to agree to the demand by the Allies that Germany surrender its merchant ships to Allied ports to transport food supplies. Germans considered the armistice a temporary cessation of the war. They feared that, if fighting broke out again, the ships would be confiscated outright.[26] In January, hoping to buy time, the German government notified an American representative in Berlin that the shortage of food would not become critical until late spring. Facing food riots at home, German finally agreed to surrender its fleet on 14 March 1919. The Allies allowed Germany, under their supervision, to import 300,000 tons of grain and 70,000 tons of cured pork per month until August 1919. [27] In April this food from America arrived in Germany.[28] The restrictions on food imports were finally lifted on 12 July 1919 after Germany signed the Treaty of Versailles.[25]

C. Paul Vincent maintains that for the German people, these were the most devastating months of the blockade because "in the weeks and months following the armistice, Germany's deplorable state further deteriorated."[29] Sally Marks has argued that the German accounts of a hunger blockade are a "myth," as Germany did not face the starvation level of Belgium and the regions of Poland and northern France that it occupied. At the armistice discussions in January 1919, the Allies offered to let Germany import food if it agreed to turn over its merchant fleet, a condition that Germany refused until the last armistice discussions in March.[30] The head of the German armistice delegation, Matthias Erzberger, balked at first at giving up the merchant fleet. He feared that if Germany surrendered it, the Allies would confiscate it as reparations. Before he surrendered the fleet, he wanted guarantees that the food imports could be financed with foreign credit owed German businesses.[31] Leaders in industry and government feared that, by taking the fleet, the Allies aimed to sever Germany from world markets. The Allies would gain an unfair competitive edge over the German steel industries, which depended on import of ore and sale to countries abroad, by charging high prices for ocean transport.[32] In the German Republic's official mouthpiece, the Deputy State Secretary of the German Food Office Braun made known his fear that, if the Allies took the ships, the dockworkers in the ports would revolt and rekindle the Spartacist uprising that aimed to overthrow the republic.[33] The leaders of the German Republic had to weigh these considerations against the reality that, in early 1919, rations in German cities were on average 1,500 calories per day
 

nbcman

Donor
They didn't have to. The British kept up the Blockade after 11/11
{snip}
In a negotiated peace as opposed to an armistice / surrender situation, one would expect that both sides would have to stop blockading the other as part of the negotiations. So if the UK continued to blockade Germany, the Germans would continue their sub campaign.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I think the Ottoman losses depend on the date of the Armistice. If Jerusalem has fallen, then I think Palestine is lost, as Britain will want to add it to Egypt. But if it has not, then the Ottomans probably hold it.

I agree that Britain or if it is feeling generous its Muslim allies, will hold onto Mesopotamia, but not the North, which even in OTL Turkey claimed

Bulgaria will make gains from Serbia, the extent depending on what happens to Serbia as a whole. It MIGHT be able to make gains from Greece but given there is a large Allied army sitting in Salonika, it seems unlikely as Salonika would be their main, or even sole, aim
 

marathag

Banned
In a negotiated peace as opposed to an armistice / surrender situation, one would expect that both sides would have to stop blockading the other as part of the negotiations. So if the UK continued to blockade Germany, the Germans would continue their sub campaign.
But by Spring 1918, the German U-Boats were rapidly losing effectiveness and having higher losses, so their attempt to strangle the UK failed, while the British blockade was increasing

Part of the OP's PoD was no unrestricted U-Boat attacks, so the UK wouldn't be hit the OTL food shortages, that were nowhere as bad as Germany's 'turnip winter' of '16-17

If they Start unrestricted warfare, that just gets the USA in
 

nbcman

Donor
But by Spring 1918, the German U-Boats were rapidly losing effectiveness and having higher losses, so their attempt to strangle the UK failed, while the British blockade was increasing

Part of the OP's PoD was no unrestricted U-Boat attacks, so the UK wouldn't be hit the OTL food shortages, that were nowhere as bad as Germany's 'turnip winter' of '16-17

If they Start unrestricted warfare, that just gets the USA in
But if the Entente and CP are attempting to negotiate in 1917 per the OP, what difference does the OTL performance of the two blockade attempts in 1918? If both sides keep up the blockade until 1918, then there wouldn't be a negotiated peace in 1917.
 
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