What would a native Germanic (Non-Christian) civilization look like?

I'm trying to brainstorm what an indigenous German civilization would look like without the introduction of Christianity, or conquest by Rome. Latin or Greek influences are acceptable, but the origin of the civilization can't be forced from outside powers or copied wholesale. Any ideas what such a thing would look like? Let me hear it.
 
What's your PoD? Germanic civilisation would inevitably have Roman influences as much as they had Celtic influences. I think the best opportunity is to have Arminius not only smash Varus at the Teutoburg Forest, but then also have Arminius defeat Germanicus, who OTL gained his name by avenging the defeat of Varus by recovering the legionary eagles in his more or less successful campaigns against Arminius. I like Idistaviso in 16 AD as a PoD. The very name of the place suggests a religious element, and if Arminius can once again defeat the Romans (perhaps by a raid on Germanicus's camp, killing him and plunging the Roman army into chaos), he'll gain serious prestige both amongst his own people and among the Romans. Certainly, when he dies his coalition will fragment and be subject to Roman rule, but Rome won't quite be as powerful beyond the Rhine as OTL, and Germanic peoples will have an inspiration to look toward. OTL, some have cited Arminius as the inspiration of Sigurd/Siegfried, legendary figures, in part based on the names of his relatives, many of whom had the "Sig-" element in their name (like his father "Segimer"). Arminius's name was likely given to him by the Romans, instead of Germanic folk etymologies like "Hermann" or something cognate with the first element of religious terms like "Jormungand" or "Irminsul", like has been suggested at times.

Basically, Arminius ends up as a demigod, and the Romans support him and end up creating some nice puppet states after he dies. But it gives Germanic civilisation more room to breath.
 
What's your PoD? Germanic civilisation would inevitably have Roman influences as much as they had Celtic influences. I think the best opportunity is to have Arminius not only smash Varus at the Teutoburg Forest, but then also have Arminius defeat Germanicus, who OTL gained his name by avenging the defeat of Varus by recovering the legionary eagles in his more or less successful campaigns against Arminius. I like Idistaviso in 16 AD as a PoD. The very name of the place suggests a religious element, and if Arminius can once again defeat the Romans (perhaps by a raid on Germanicus's camp, killing him and plunging the Roman army into chaos), he'll gain serious prestige both amongst his own people and among the Romans. Certainly, when he dies his coalition will fragment and be subject to Roman rule, but Rome won't quite be as powerful beyond the Rhine as OTL, and Germanic peoples will have an inspiration to look toward. OTL, some have cited Arminius as the inspiration of Sigurd/Siegfried, legendary figures, in part based on the names of his relatives, many of whom had the "Sig-" element in their name (like his father "Segimer"). Arminius's name was likely given to him by the Romans, instead of Germanic folk etymologies like "Hermann" or something cognate with the first element of religious terms like "Jormungand" or "Irminsul", like has been suggested at times.

Basically, Arminius ends up as a demigod, and the Romans support him and end up creating some nice puppet states after he dies. But it gives Germanic civilisation more room to breath.

I doubt it; the more setbacks they have, the more Rome is going to throw at Germania as a matter of prestige. Crisis of the Third Century seems like a better place to begin, or a longer surviving Norse Pagan state if that counts.
 
I doubt it; the more setbacks they have, the more Rome is going to throw at Germania as a matter of prestige. Crisis of the Third Century seems like a better place to begin, or a longer surviving Norse Pagan state if that counts.

Germanicus is dead (along with tens of thousands of Roman soldiers, since even OTL, his campaigns didn't come easy despite his victories). Rome is embarassed once more. In North Africa, the breadbasket of Rome, another deserter from Rome, the Berber Tacfarinas, is leading a popular revolt amongst North African tribes and severely disrupting the local economy. Rome's other enemy, Parthia, is still peaceful, but no doubt they notice the defeats Rome is suffering. It makes sense to accept Arminius's offer, if only to prevent a nightmarish scenario of Arminius and Tacfarinas joining forces while Parthia invades. Economically, Arminius and any successor can be brought into the Roman economic sphere.
 
Pure Germanic civilization to be possible needs a POD possibly during the Indo-European migrations itself.

Roman/Greek influence would exist predominantly in any European major civilization if they retain the Mediterranean.
 
Perhaps taking a look at the Angle and Saxon kingdoms in Britain before they went Christian might help.
But you cannot take out the massive Roman influence that will exist for these kingdoms too, inevitably. It's too late to avoid Roman influence by that time.

If you had a "Purely Germanic" Empire develop earlier along with the Roman Empire, this could have been somewhat possible but here too, there will be a lot of Roman influence like how there was Persian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Anatolian influence on the Greek Civilization.

The OP mentions that conquest by Rome should be avoided.

Edit: Since you mentioned before Christianity, then I can think of such an empire in around 2nd or 3rd Century AD with less Roman influence but a lot of Celtic influence(Gods and traditions) in Germania and Britain.
 
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But you cannot take out the massive Roman influence that will exist for these kingdoms too, inevitably. It's too late to avoid Roman influence by that time.

If you had a "Purely Germanic" Empire develop earlier along with the Roman Empire, this could have been somewhat possible but here too, there will be a lot of Roman influence like how there was Persian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Anatolian influence on the Greek Civilization.

The OP mentions that conquest by Rome should be avoided.
I did say might help.
Texts like Beowulf and the Norse sagas should also provide some information on Germanic civilisation outside Rome.
Part of the problem is that Roman influence was so pervasive it becomes near impossible to tell what would arise in its absence.
However a look at the Gauls might provide some information.
 
Part of the problem is that Roman influence was so pervasive it becomes near impossible to tell what would arise in its absence.
Yeah, that's true. Roman/Greek influence to be curtailed needs a quite earlier POD. With such a vacuum in the Mediterranean, the Germanic(And Celtic) tribes would have moved down South, even earlier. That would be interesting.

But yes, there will always be more than two components in any European civilization. Even without the Romans, Celtic influence would be existent and something like that.

Europe provides a continious and a conducive climate zone which helps a lot of groups migrate and settle into it.
 
Maybe a POD involving the Senones could prevent Rome from becoming as powerful as it did?
Or you could have a more diverse Italy and Balkans. This could give the Germanic people and Celts more opportunity to expand into these areas more easily, as an empire and a civilization. But the development of Civilization and culture could happen in similar ways to what happened in our timeline.
 
Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by 'civilization'; What customs and social technologies might a non-christian, non-Romanized Germanic society develop that leads to them building and living in their own cities without slaughtering one another over successive generations? What justifications would be impressive enough to Germanic society that would lead to civilization being generated organically. Again, Greco-Roman influence is fine, Celtic as well.

And I don't think a specific POD is necessary for this, but if you want one then let's say Christianity never gets off the ground and history proceeds normally from there. So no proselytizing religion giving direct ingress for Roman culture and institutions among Germanic societies.
 
Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by 'civilization'; What customs and social technologies might a non-christian, non-Romanized Germanic society develop that leads to them building and living in their own cities without slaughtering one another over successive generations? What justifications would be impressive enough to Germanic society that would lead to civilization being generated organically. Again, Greco-Roman influence is fine, Celtic as well.

And I don't think a specific POD is necessary for this, but if you want one then let's say Christianity never gets off the ground and history proceeds normally from there. So no proselytizing religion giving direct ingress for Roman culture and institutions among Germanic societies.
The development of Fürstensitze in the Hallstatt Central European world and of Oppida in the late La Tene period clearly show the development of organic, low-density towns without really direct causation from the Mediterranean world. So honestly if you have Germanic groups controlling both banks of the Rhine and Danube they would definitely eventually develop those small towns on their own, especially given you would have more direct influence from either a developed Celtic or Roman Gaul which was not present before.

Honestly it's hard to tell how it would look like, any recorded example of pre-Christian Germanic society comes from the outside and even mostly during a phase were such groups are being influenced by the same group recording them, plus we don't know how similar or different the various groups were at any given point in time, let alone how different groups differed when accounting both for the time we have accounts of them and their location.

Is there anything specific you are looking for? Religion? State structure? Society? Warfare? Language?
 
Is there anything specific you are looking for? Religion? State structure? Society? Warfare? Language?

Society and warfare are pretty easy to surmise, and as for political arrangement the continuation and further sophistication of tribal kingships seems most plausible. What doesn't come to mind is the unifying element that keeps the Germans settled and peaceful enough to make their civilization work. Historically even after centuries of Romanization and Christianization the Germanic kingdoms had a tendancy to fall into anarchy; regicide seems to be quite common, as do rebellions and then there's the fathers splitting their inheritance(in land/authority) among their sons (that sort of nonsense persisted right into the middle ages). So I'm looking for something religious/cultural that tells the Germans "stop tearing everything apart all the time!" that isn't some 'Interpretatio Romana' or command from the pope.
 
I'm trying to brainstorm what an indigenous German civilization would look like without the introduction of Christianity, or conquest by Rome. Latin or Greek influences are acceptable, but the origin of the civilization can't be forced from outside powers or copied wholesale. Any ideas what such a thing would look like? Let me hear it.

Ancient Gaul and Norse society give some good hints.

Gaul after all was essentially a "native" civilization with large cities, social structure, organized religion that had the Romans next door, but could have developed not that differently had the Carthagians or Greeks or Etruscans been the neighbors.

The Norse are good to look at for initial expansion, variation (Iceland and Sweden are different) how cities and towns might be organized. The Norse also think differently in ways we don't. But the closest thing I think to describe it is think of Norse Gods names like Thor and Odin as both nouns and verbs simultaneously. The lightning striking is Thor just as the rage or inspiration you feel is the act of Odining (not quite right but I'm trying).

Look at religious practices like Seidthe and Beserk and think how they'd adopt over time. I think Japanese and Chinese shamanistic practices that have continued to modern times is a good place to start.

You can also combine traits here. Give your alt Germans Norse trade networking with more Roman style acculturation and figure out how to sell it alt time and you have something original.
 
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Society and warfare are pretty easy to surmise, and as for political arrangement the continuation and further sophistication of tribal kingships seems most plausible. What doesn't come to mind is the unifying element that keeps the Germans settled and peaceful enough to make their civilization work. Historically even after centuries of Romanization and Christianization the Germanic kingdoms had a tendancy to fall into anarchy; regicide seems to be quite common, as do rebellions and then there's the fathers splitting their inheritance(in land/authority) among their sons (that sort of nonsense persisted right into the middle ages). So I'm looking for something religious/cultural that tells the Germans "stop tearing everything apart all the time!" that isn't some 'Interpretatio Romana' or command from the pope.
Do you need people to be completely settled or peaceful to have political unification happen? The Viking went everywhere while the Scandinavian kingdoms were solidifying, plus think about the Roman or Byzantine empires and how many internal conflict it had every generation or 2.

Do you think this internal instability and cyclical fracturing is a feature of Germanic kingship compared to other systems? To me it doesn't seem wildly different.
 

Zen9

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Germanic expansion is out of the Cimbric peninsula into what is now Germany. This is a reaction to overwhelming influence of Celtic culture, just as to the south in the Italian peninsula Roman is pushing up against them.

So under the right circumstances it's possible...
 
Germanic expansion is out of the Cimbric peninsula into what is now Germany. This is a reaction to overwhelming influence of Celtic culture, just as to the south in the Italian peninsula Roman is pushing up against them.

So under the right circumstances it's possible...
Proto-Germanic expanded into modern Germany(around the Elbe especially) prior to the bigger part of the Celtic influence, AFAIK it was not a reaction nor a massive migration, as far as we can tell the earliest evidence of Germanic or what we can in retrospect interpret as Germanic come both from North-Eastern Germany and Scandinavia, it's not like Scandinavia can be deemed as the sole homeland of some sort.
 
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