What would a modern Byzantine empire look like?
- Thread starter ArKhan
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Deleted member 67076
Best case scenario a superpower, worst case a respectable regional power.
No Fourth Crusade means a MUCH more powerful Byzantine state instead of what Nicea, Epirus and Trebizond were, that combined with the Mongols smashing the hell out of the Seljuks and their raids in the Balkans is going to give the Rhomaioi alot of breathing room. They'd probably be able to reconquer most of Anatolia and the Balkans in that century alone. It really depends on what happens next.
No Fourth Crusade means a MUCH more powerful Byzantine state instead of what Nicea, Epirus and Trebizond were, that combined with the Mongols smashing the hell out of the Seljuks and their raids in the Balkans is going to give the Rhomaioi alot of breathing room. They'd probably be able to reconquer most of Anatolia and the Balkans in that century alone. It really depends on what happens next.
Surviving Byzantine Empire would mean very large butterflies and nearly unrecognsible world. History of Russia would be different. Ottomans would have different faith. No Ottoman invasion attempt to Central Europe. And probably founding of America delay few decades, perhaps even one century. Perhaps we see weaker Islam and stronger Mediterranean area. But it is impossible to say how important power Roman Empire would be or would it be absolute monarchy or would it transfer as constitutional monarchy.
I wouldn't go that far, at all. Although there were be many, many, butterflies, we can look at the resources available in Greece and Anatolia, look at the population of this region, and extrapolate how strong the Empire might be in the *present. It can't be exact, of course, but arguments and discussion can still be made.
I see what your saying, its difficult, but there is no reason to assume that we can't come up with some arguments.
The main problem with going with what we know of OTL is that a surviving Byzantium greatly alters the situation in Anatolia compared to OTL.
Its not like we can't make some kind of guess, but it is going to take some work.
And a thing to note - while the Mongols hurt the Seljuk state, they didn't decrease - quite the opposite in fact - the number of Turks in Anatolia (long term at least). Or the Turcomen raiders, who are at least as problematic to Rhomania having "breathing room" as the Seljuk state.
Plus, with their other actions, they reinforced the Islamic component there as sufis and such from the east moved.
Its not to say that something can't be done - but a Byzantium having to go from what happened by 1204 on is going to be in a much weaker and more limited position than one with an earlier POD, even if avoiding 1204 makes a difference.
Its not like we can't make some kind of guess, but it is going to take some work.
And a thing to note - while the Mongols hurt the Seljuk state, they didn't decrease - quite the opposite in fact - the number of Turks in Anatolia (long term at least). Or the Turcomen raiders, who are at least as problematic to Rhomania having "breathing room" as the Seljuk state.
Plus, with their other actions, they reinforced the Islamic component there as sufis and such from the east moved.
Its not to say that something can't be done - but a Byzantium having to go from what happened by 1204 on is going to be in a much weaker and more limited position than one with an earlier POD, even if avoiding 1204 makes a difference.
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
I doubt it. The reason why Russia was so backwards was that they had a lack of contact with the West, where as Byzantium had quite a lot of contact.
Delvestius
Banned
Naw dude Russia was backwards because of their lack of warm water ports and urban middle class. Of course the few centuries of Mongol rule couldn't of helped... Distance from the west was a factor but not the sole one.
I agree with Basilius; The Orthodox church made Russia what it is today, and a modern Byzantine state could very well see the same tendencies.
Having broken up into its nationalities after the fall of the Communist state, it's welded together by a former head of the secret police?
Compared to what I expect from others on this site, I am substantially underinformed on this topic. So, my question is, do the Byzantines not only beat back the Otts but take over large portions of what eventually was the Ottoman Empire? Or are they largely a state encompassing modern day Turkey and Greece? Or Just Thrace, Greece, Cyprus and a few other Mediteranean Islands? Hard to imagine they would retain boundaries as of 1204.
It seems to me that they lose out to the Atlantic trade much the same way the Ottomans did. The English, Portugese, Spanish, and French were going to head west or South regardless of who held Constantinople. They probably industrialize better than the Turks did. Given the shared religious background, the rivalry in the black sea and caucuses might have been more peaceful than what the Turks encountered with the Russians during the 18th and 19th centuries.
Interested to read more or learn why any of these statements are ASB.
It seems to me that they lose out to the Atlantic trade much the same way the Ottomans did. The English, Portugese, Spanish, and French were going to head west or South regardless of who held Constantinople. They probably industrialize better than the Turks did. Given the shared religious background, the rivalry in the black sea and caucuses might have been more peaceful than what the Turks encountered with the Russians during the 18th and 19th centuries.
Interested to read more or learn why any of these statements are ASB.
What's Byzantine Empire (or its successor state) in modern times?
Territory: Either OTL Greece, Cyprus and most of Turkey (except northeast and southeast) or OTL Greece, Cyprus and western coast of Turkey
Government: Federal constitutional monarchy.
Economy: Probably one of the most economically-important nation because of its location.
Language: Greek (obviously)
Media: Vibrant, as usual
Territory: Either OTL Greece, Cyprus and most of Turkey (except northeast and southeast) or OTL Greece, Cyprus and western coast of Turkey
Government: Federal constitutional monarchy.
Economy: Probably one of the most economically-important nation because of its location.
Language: Greek (obviously)
Media: Vibrant, as usual
Deleted member 67076
Even more if the empire pushes down the Levant and gets a port on the Red Sea
KaiserCorax
Banned
Possible maps
Byzantine-wank:
More likely/less ASB version
Abysmal map of modern day Byzantium (essentially an Ottoman and Bulgarian wank):
Byzantine-wank:
More likely/less ASB version
Abysmal map of modern day Byzantium (essentially an Ottoman and Bulgarian wank):
KaiserCorax
Banned
Only if they had Egypt. Otherwise they have no entrance into the Indian Ocean, and the Catholic Spanish won't let them through.
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