What would a Fascist Canada be like?

[ArtosStark]

There were several fascist movements in Canada in otl, don’t know what they used for rhetoric but they surely found something. Plenty of new world countries had fascist movements, some even took power, so I don’t buy thy argument that Canada was to young a nation for it to succeed.

True, but they were never taken all that seriously. At most they were an extension of the more out there conservatives. I said at the start that it was impossible for Canada to go Fascist. But I think there are some serious obstacles to get there. Any ultranationalist rhetoric is likely to be aimed at another nations history, as @overoceans says. Which kind of gets undercut if that other nation does not follow along.

The situations where I could see Canada going Fascist generally involve Britain (or, maybe France, though there is more disconnect between Quebec and France herself) either going Fascist herself, and managing to encourage the same in some of its Dominions, or a Kaiserreich scenario where Britain has gone Communist and Canada (possibly with help from fleeing British elites) goes Fascist in response.

I suppose it might also be possible if the US, either in whole or parts of a divided Union, are communist. Especially if their rhetoric seems aimed at Canada. Again, it is not the only, or I think the most, likely reaction to the situation but it is certainly possible.

 

[suul'ken]

A Fascist Canada?
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Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg is a Hearts of Iron II, Darkest Hour and Hearts of Iron IV Game Mod that is set in an alternate timeline where the Central Powers win World War I. Currently in 1.4 beta for Hearts of Iron II, 1.9 beta for …

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1.Have Central powers win WW1 and as a consequence a socialist revolution happens in Britain. Monarchy and the loyalist government are forced to flee to Canada, which becomes the new center of British Empire.
2.As a result of Entente losing the WW1 after a brief Cold war with the victorious CP the US economy collapses which eventually results in the outbreak Second American civil War between the Federalist loyalists under military dictatorship, Syndicalist/socialists and the American South and Autonomous Western states + New England which declared neutrality and want nothing to do with the whole mess.

Canada intervenes in order to prevent the victory of the syndicalists and outright occupies New England and Alaska when the Federalists collapse.
In the Kaiserreich British Empire in Exile, French Republican government (also in exile) and a Russia were bolshevik victory was prevented by intervention of Kolchak are the primary fascist powers and alt fascism is called National Populism .

National Populism

Main article: List of Political Ideologies National Populism is a broad term for political ideologies associated with authoritarian ultranationalism involving a rejection of liberalism and socialism in favor of a traditionalist, militaristic, and one-party authoritarian state. Despite many...

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[Kaze]

They would invade the US and win - due to utter niceness.

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

It just occurred to me that Newfoundland was still separate from the rest of Canada in the era we're mostly talking about here. Wonder if there'd be interest in a fascist Canada to bring them into the fold as well...?

About the only widespread stereotype of Canadians is that we are inordinately polite. So I'm not sure how you work that into a joke about fascism. "Pardon me, but Sieg Heil"?

Something about the guard politely asking an enemy of the Canadian people to step into the boxcar to be transported to the concentration camp?

 

[Starforce]

@overoceans

Looks about right! Do you think the Canadians would want to lay claim to Alaska, New york and other American cities?

 

[TRH]

Italy could point to the Roman Empire. Germany to the HRE and various “Germanic” peoples. What would Canada’s myth be centered on? The British Empire, without Britain? The French Empire without France? A Native Confederacy?

There is not really a good option in Canada. It’s not just that the nation is young, it’s that most people have only been there for a handful of generations and still hold a level of connection to somewhere else.

The connections to somewhere else are exactly what you'd need. Specifically, I'm thinking Ulster. 20 of the 23 mayors of Toronto in the 19th century were members of the Orange Order, which also maintained its own militia and could pressure magistrates and juries. So a fascism centered around Protestant ascendancy empowering Protestant elites and giving lower-class Protestants "psychological wages," in Dubois' phrasing, is a logical starting point. And for the veneration of ancient valor, you've got rich Irish folklore to draw from, not least the Ulster Cycle of it. Order of Cú Chulainn, anyone?

 

[Starforce]

The connections to somewhere else are exactly what you'd need. Specifically, I'm thinking Ulster. 20 of the 23 mayors of Toronto in the 19th century were members of the Orange Order, which also maintained its own militia and could pressure magistrates and juries. So a fascism centered around Protestant ascendancy empowering Protestant elites and giving lower-class Protestants "psychological wages," in Dubois' phrasing, is a logical starting point. And for the veneration of ancient valor, you've got rich Irish folklore to draw from, not least the Ulster Cycle of it. Order of Cú Chulainn, anyone?

If this is a scenario in which Britain becomes communist, there will be lots of British and Irish fleeing to Canada so their population will be boosted and they will be very angry. Perhaps it could form some sort of mysticism around Canada as the new homeland for the British people and that they will get revenge on the demons that occupy the Isles.

 

[TRH]

If this is a scenario in which Britain becomes communist, there will be lots of British and Irish fleeing to Canada so their population will be boosted and they will be very angry. Perhaps it could form some sort of mysticism around Canada as the new homeland for the British people and that they will get revenge on the demons that occupy the Isles.

Well, a fascist Canada's geopolitical objectives would be driven in part by its geographic circumstances. The kind of Protestant supremacist version I was envisioning has no room for Quebec, which in turn makes it hard to hold onto the Maritimes as well, and without good Atlantic ports, invading Britain would seem too fanciful even for fascists. Honestly, I suspect a fascist Canada would be more like North Korea than anything else. Its neighbors would be too strong, so you'd just get a lot of posturing, minor border incidents and abuse of internal minorities for the most part.

 

[Starforce]

Well, a fascist Canada's geopolitical objectives would be driven in part by its geographic circumstances. The kind of Protestant supremacist version I was envisioning has no room for Quebec, which in turn makes it hard to hold onto the Maritimes as well, and without good Atlantic ports, invading Britain would seem too fanciful even for fascists. Honestly, I suspect a fascist Canada would be more like North Korea than anything else. Its neighbors would be too strong, so you'd just get a lot of posturing, minor border incidents and abuse of internal minorities for the most part.

I suppose in your situation Quebec has split off or been independent for a while. How do you see this version of yours coming about?

 

[TRH]

I suppose in your situation Quebec has split off or been independent for a while. How do you see this version of yours coming about?

Well, I came to the idea as an in-universe alternate history story in my Napoleon timeline, where the in-universe POD involves a megacorporation buying up Hudson Bay in the 1860's. Then the following decade, spoiler stuff in the main timeline results in a Catholicism scare throughout the Anglosphere, which scuttles any hopes of a Canadian confederation and causes relations between Ontario and Quebec to get worse and worse. And in Ontario, the Orange Order has been gaining more and more power since the 1830's, with the powers that be turning a blind eye to their more violent activities because they enforce the existing social order. And with the rise in anti-Catholicism, their membership surges in the 1870's and 1880's, to the point their politicians dominate the provincial government.

Fast forward a generation or two, the Maritimes have distanced themselves from Toronto, while Britain has been keeping its hands off in the hopes that the problems will go away on their own. They'll eventually conclude that that approach isn't working, and a more liberal British government tries to pressure Toronto into granting more civil rights to Catholics and other minorities. Ontario refuses and declares independence in response, and the British decide they can't risk fighting a war over this, given the Orange Order has sympathizers in Britain still, so they let them go. And after that, they just get more and more isolated, and their quasi-theocratic government runs them into the ground. Like I said, more a North Korea than a Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.

As for converting that into a straight AH, I'd need to do more research on Canada at the time of the Confederation, but some issue that puts the Orangemen in the driver's seat and puts them at odds with Quebec, and causes Ontario politics to progressively more corrupt and violent would be the starting point, and bad luck and bad decisions would let things spiral downwards from there.

 

[Starforce]

@TRH

That is all very interesting! Honestly sounds like a pretty evil version of Canada to me with the whole theocratic element which adds to the level of horror there. I am looking for a timeline that soley focuses on this Fascist Canada with no other real differences across the world if possible but it seems like this setting needs that in order to occur.

 

[overoceans]

@overoceans

Looks about right! Do you think the Canadians would want to lay claim to Alaska, New york and other American cities?

There'd be no real irredentist logic to Canada annexing Alaska, so that would be about as absurd as Italy laying claim to Ethiopia.

Oh, wait.

Seriously, though, I guess I could see an expansionist Canada grabbing Alaska, just for the lulz, and maybe the oil. If they were thinking in terms or reversing historical injustices, however, they might want to try and reclaim the treasonous thirteen colonies. And I wonder if Quebec nationalists could be talked into taking back at least some of the lands sold by the heathen Napoleon to the perfidious yanks.

All this, of course, would require a SEVERELY weakened USA.

 

[Starforce]

There'd be no real irredentist logic to Canada annexing Alaska, so that would be about as absurd as Italy laying claim to Ethiopia.

Oh, wait.

Seriously, though, I guess I could see an expansionist Canada grabbing Alaska, just for the lulz, and maybe the oil. If they were thinking in terms or reversing historical injustices, however, they might want to try and reclaim the treasonous thirteen colonies. And I wonder if Quebec nationalists could be talked into taking back at least some of the lands sold by the heathen Napoleon to the perfidious yanks.

All this, of course, would require a SEVERELY weakened USA.

I also see them wanting to claim Greenland and Iceland, and various portions of the Northern US. Hell, they might even want to take the whole continent if the US is weakened or balkanized.

 

[overoceans]

I also see them wanting to claim Greenland and Iceland, and various portions of the Northern US. Hell, they might even want to take the whole continent if the US is weakened or balkanized.

All possible, if we're doing a fascist-Canada wank. But assuming some basic fidelity to realism, I think the best-case scenario is a fascist government being imposed on Canada Vichy-style, either by the UK or the USA. So we'd likely just end up with whatever North American territories they were able to grab, and wanted to toss our way.

And whether that could include Greenland would probably depend on what was happening in Europe. If a fascist UK conquers Denmark, they might just turn Greenland over to Canada to save themselves the administrative headache.

 

[KingSweden24]

The connections to somewhere else are exactly what you'd need. Specifically, I'm thinking Ulster. 20 of the 23 mayors of Toronto in the 19th century were members of the Orange Order, which also maintained its own militia and could pressure magistrates and juries. So a fascism centered around Protestant ascendancy empowering Protestant elites and giving lower-class Protestants "psychological wages," in Dubois' phrasing, is a logical starting point. And for the veneration of ancient valor, you've got rich Irish folklore to draw from, not least the Ulster Cycle of it. Order of Cú Chulainn, anyone?

This is similar to my idea for Canada’s long term trajectory in my own TL; not necessarily a fascist Canada but a more unstable, nationalistic and internally divided one where the Tories are explicitly a Protestant chauvinist party who are essentially the parliamentary arm of the Orange Order (worse Fenian raids in a CSA victory/Habsburg Mexico scenario and a successful assassination of Prince Alfred in the Sydney Affair are my immediate PODs)

 

[Starforce]

All possible, if we're doing a fascist-Canada wank. But assuming some basic fidelity to realism, I think the best-case scenario is a fascist government being imposed on Canada Vichy-style, either by the UK or the USA. So we'd likely just end up with whatever North American territories they were able to grab, and wanted to toss our way.

And whether that could include Greenland would probably depend on what was happening in Europe. If a fascist UK conquers Denmark, they might just turn Greenland over to Canada to save themselves the administrative headache.

If there was a fascist Britain then could America intervene in Canada to prevent a fascist rebellion? Would be what I imagine happening unless America's attention was focused elsewhere, which would be required for this.

I can see that happening for Greenland. Maybe the UK could turn over several Caribbean territories to Canada

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

Sorry, I don't know how to do a "Love" on a cell-phone.

It was the first thing I thought when I saw the thread title, and I clicked on it to see if someone had made this joke.

 

[overoceans]

If there was a fascist Britain then could America intervene in Canada to prevent a fascist rebellion? Would be what I imagine happening unless America's attention was focused elsewhere, which would be required for this.

I can see that happening for Greenland. Maybe the UK could turn over several Caribbean territories to Canada

I don't think a fascist Britain would be any more likely to hand its Caribbean colonies over to Canada than a democratic Britain was. I think Greenland makes more sense because it would be something acquired inadvertantly, by invading Denmark, and they might not want the trouble of running it.

I agree if you had a fascist UK, then a democratic US might invade Canada to stop fascism from taking root up north. Though OTL, the USA did recognize the Vichy government, so there might be some precedent there. (If factoring in the border with Canada doesn't make a diffrrence.)

 

[Starforce]

I don't think a fascist Britain would be any more likely to hand its Caribbean colonies over to Canada than a democratic Britain was. I think Greenland makes more sense because it would be something acquired inadvertantly, by invading Denmark, and they might not want the trouble of running it.

I agree if you had a fascist UK, then a democratic US might invade Canada to stop fascism from taking root up north. Though OTL, the USA did recognize the Vichy government, so there might be some precedent there. (If factoring in the border with Canada doesn't make a diffrrence.)

All of this begs the question, where would the divergence point be and how would that lead to a fascist Canada? Seems like something going down in Britain is a must.

 

[ArmageddonZ4747]

I also see them wanting to claim Greenland and Iceland, and various portions of the Northern US. Hell, they might even want to take the whole continent if the US is weakened or balkanized.

Maybe the rest of Oregon Country...?