What Would a CSA History Textbook Look Like Today?
- Thread starter ZeldaOwner
- Start date
I agree, wholeheartedly.
As for the OP - I think ninebucks has the right idea, but I think we can broaden the immigration base a bit to include Latin America, Southern/Eastern Europe, France, and the Middle East/North Africa, which would definitely alter the population makeup of the Confederacy. In this case, the CSA would probably be involved with Latin America whilst not expanding into it (no Sonora, Chilhuahua, Baja California, and no Cuba for you!), primarily Central America, the Caribbean, and northern South America.
It occurs to me that a victorious, successful, Confederate States would write its histories in such a way that it was the true descendent of the original United States of 1776 and the Constitution. Many of the key founders were Virginians and it would be fairly easy to portray the events leading up to the War of Northern Aggression as a result of the increasing divergence of the northern states from the original decentralized, aristocratic, and white supremacist vision of the "most important" Founders. School textbook chapters describing early (united) US history would focus almost entirely on events in the southern states and tend to talk about the north only to describe and emphasize the people and political movements that led to its estrangement from the South.
I agree with this part. Just taking a look at the Confederate constitution, you can see it's just intended to be a modified, improved version of the US constitution.
The rest of your post, I don't so much disagree with, but I think it would be considered less relevant. Given everything that happened later in Confederate history, that aspect just wouldn't be so important.
I'm not saying that there wasn't racism prior to the war; there was slavery for God's sake! But the souther racism as we know it, as it appears on history text books, segregation and the Jim Crow laws, are a product of the South loosing the war, ending slavery by force, and becoming an economic hellhole for almost a century.
If they win the war the nature of southern racism will be very different. How it evolves would greatly depend on how slavery ends; a massive slave revolt would have a very different effect than a civil war that ends up breaking the CSA into separate states or than a peaceful emancipation
All I am saying is 90% of TL where the CSA successfully breaks away ends up with the South evolving socially in almost the same way OTL south did. Things like no universal healthcare, are common appearance. Both populist right (ala Freedom Party) or a Socialist left would give you that (at least to all the white population).
Another thing that most people don't take into consideration is that the CSA is pretty much destined to become a black majority country. By being a separate country it makes it much harder for blacks leave the south and to go into the US. Meanwhile a lot of poor Southern whites would move to the US for better paying jobs, and a better life, etc. And unlike OTL northerners won't find the south as attractive, even after air conditioning, so there is no movement of whites back into the Sun Belt. These changes in demographics alone would provoke very deep changes in race relations in the south.
I'm imagining a white-populist South claiming the evil planters brought in blacks to have a more controllable labor force (as opposed to the white indentured servants) and when the evil planter regime was overthrown, the glorious revolt undid the evil planters' scheme by returning the slaves to their ancestral home.
AKA deporting them en masse back to Africa, which would cause massive problems for both the deported slaves and the natives and/or colonial regimes they're landing on top of.
(In my AH.com episode "Los Estados Confederados de America," I featured huge numbers of Confederate deportees being crammed into OTL Liberia and turning it into a giant ghetto.)
AKA deporting them en masse back to Africa, which would cause massive problems for both the deported slaves and the natives and/or colonial regimes they're landing on top of.
(In my AH.com episode "Los Estados Confederados de America," I featured huge numbers of Confederate deportees being crammed into OTL Liberia and turning it into a giant ghetto.)
Interesting discussion here re: the CSA taking a left/socialist bent. I can't see it happening, though -- I see the CSA, politically, as being socially conservative with its "left" taking a more moderate approach. I also see the elite of the CSA having control/influence the entire time -- much more so
My outline of a textbook:
1) EARLY AMERICAS -- an emphasis on the importance of the Virginia settlements while the importance of the Massachusetts Bay colonies significantly downplayed. Many of the First Familes of Virginia, as well as significant early planters, are given a lot of emphasis in these texts at the expense of John Winthrop, Roger Williams, etc.
2) COLONIAL PERIOD/REVOLUTION -- I agree with Dan1988. The CSA texts would emphasize the importance of the South's leadership in defeating the British and starting the new nation. George Washington's military leadership is a particularly proud point. So is Thomas Jefferson's states-rights viewpoints (I think the "limited government" viewpoint that many on the right draw from Jeffersonian philosophies would be the primary viewpoint of a modern-day CSA).
3) BUILD-UP TO THE CIVIL WAR -- this would have much more substance and importance in history texts than anything else. It would talk about the arguments of the War of Northern Aggression and discuss how they moved away from the initial intents of America's leading leaders who were, naturally, Virginia-based.
4) CIVIL WAR -- Obviously with a huge concentration on the military successes and leadership/soldiering of how a force limited in numbers and supplies could take down the aggressor. It's kind of how our texts tend to view the Revolutionary War -- with the CSA as an underdog as sorts. There is also a lot of emphasis on Jefferson Davis and the early days of CSA politics.
5) AFTERMATH -- The South rebuilds from the war. However, it cannot get by just on agriculture alone. Thankfully, England and France invest in the CSA to help rebuild its ruined infrastructure. New roads, ports and the like are built. The CSA also starts developing its infant industrial sector.
6) INDUSTRY AND SLAVERY -- The CSA sees a blossoming of its industry -- steel and textile industries boom. Much like China today, it can make goods cheaper than its neighbors to the north and benefits via exports. Manufacturing also helps the CSA rebuild its military, which its government sees as a primary goal due to a potential war with the North once again. The diversifying economy makes the Southern states wealthier/healthier. But it also lessens the need for agriculture as it is no longer the dominant source of income. However, moving slaves into a factory setting proves difficult -- there are a few factory takeoves and revolts.
As such, the wealthy owners of industry (many of the plantation owners diversified and also own the factories) have less of a need for slaves. This, along with pressure from its major trading partners causes slavery to die a slow death. Slaves still exist as late as the 1890s, but by that time it's anachronistic.
7) RELATIONS WITH THE NORTH -- There was much political jockeying in the aftermath of the Civil War and high tensions, particularly over border issues and access rights. But, as neither side wanted (or was capable) of fighting another protracted battle, an easy peace settled in.
8) THE GREAT MIGRATION/SEGGREGATION -- Southerners fear the impacts of a black underclass. As a result, the CSA strikes a deal with the USA -- the North will accept black migrants from the North, in exchange for lower tariff rates for agricultural products. Many blacks migrants move north for better opportunities.
Blacks that stay in the CSA find themselves in a separate-but-eqal situation. Southern industrialists and plantation owners hire blacks but do so at lesser wages than their white counterparts. Blacks, politically, are not allowed to vote. Some Southern politicians fight for the rights for blacks to vote but are few and far between. Black schools are separate from white schools; neighborhoods are seggregated, etc.
However, much of the black population of the South moves to the North from 1880 - 1910.
9) WORLD WAR I -- The CSA backs its ally/trading partner England in WWI and joins the battle before the USA does. The CSA army, in its first major action (it stayed out of affairs in Cuba and was largely isolationist and did not expand past its initial borders) since the Civil War, fares well. Its leaders follow in the fine tradition of Robert E. Lee (its main military school is known as the Lee School and is based at Bull Run) and they're accreddited for much of the success of the allies. It's widely viewed that their military is better than the wealther USA's due to its strength in leadership and very willing troops.
WWI also creates greater ties between the USA and the CSA. From this point forward, the two sides have separate militaries and foreign policy shaping bodies. However, there's an unspoken agreement that the two will, mostly, move foot-in-step.
10) THE DEPRESSION -- The Great Depression causes poverty and stryfe just as it does throughout the rest of the world.
Politically, Huey Long emerges from Louisiana as an outspoken progressive. At the same time, factory workers in the South follow workers in the North in unionization efforts. This works to some affect -- but, more so than in the USA, inudstrialists manage to crack down on strikes. Long's agenda does take a foothold in some quarters; however he fails to win the presidency but does have the CSA's Congress move away from its traditional right-wing stance and more towards the middle. The
11) WORLD WAR 2 -- The CSA joins the war efforts in Germany once Great Britain and France do. However, with no states on the Pacific, it does not join the battle against Japan.
The CSA army once again proves itself worthy -- its stunning leadership and disciplined troops are viewed as the best in the war and are more respected than US forces. Douglas Macarthur emerges as a CSA icon for his efforts comandeering the Atlantic fleet (much more aggressive than it was in OTL) and is elected president after the war ends.
The US navy struggles against Japan but eventually wins after Hiroshima.
12) POST-WAR/ARMS RACE -- The South, fearful of Communism, moves back to the right politically. It's economy, much like the North, blossoms. (At this point in time, there is an open border between the two nations.) Tensions do arise between the North and the South over the atom bomb, which the CSA does not have. A spy case in which Southerners pried away nuclear weapon secrets from the North heightens tensions and becomes a diplomatic incident. The CSA develops its own nuclear capabilities on par with the USA. The two nations end up developing joint nuclear ties in case of a Soviet attack.
The CSA economy rapidly increases after WW2 and, in almost every standard, matches that of the north.
13) THE TURBULENT 60s -- The CSA joins the USA in both Korea and Vietnam. A deseggregation movement begins in the CSA. Blacks, given the right to vote in the 1920s, protest en masse (with a decent percentage of white supporters) to enroll in state universities and end discriminatory practices. Martin Luther King, Jr. rises to local prominence but gains a very limited foothold.
However, racial tumult is a fraction of the race riots witnessed in Detroit, Newark and LA. Southern students/youth also do not, to the same extent, buy into the counterculture movement that their peers do in the north. George Wallace becomes president on a law-and-order/traditional values ticket.
The CSA and the USA break on Vietnam, the first time their militaries have diverged in the 20th Century. While the USA slowly pulls out due to a lack of support amongst its populace, the CSA stays the course as much of the population supports these efforts. North Vietnam and South Vietnam remain two separate countries, much like the Koreas.
The CSA also stays with a draft.
The split over Vietnam created tensions between Wallace and his US counterparts -- LBJ followed by Nixon. After Nixon's resignation after Watergate, Wallace gloats about his nation's superior ethics.
14) DESGGREGATION -- Deseggregation slowly ends, much like slavery did. A surprising figure emerges as a reason why -- Alabama football coach Paul "Bear" Bryant. After Alabama is upset by Grambling, Bryant realizes that black athletes can benefit his program. He pushes the state legislature to allow blacks to enroll in Alabama; other football coaches follow suit and blacks are soon admitted into state universities.
15) THE END OF THE USSR -- The USA and CSA once again merge their foreign policies similarly. Ronald Reagan and CSA President Howard Baker stand arm-in-arm as they order the Berlin Wall to fall. The Soviet Union collapses just as it unfolded in real life.
My outline of a textbook:
1) EARLY AMERICAS -- an emphasis on the importance of the Virginia settlements while the importance of the Massachusetts Bay colonies significantly downplayed. Many of the First Familes of Virginia, as well as significant early planters, are given a lot of emphasis in these texts at the expense of John Winthrop, Roger Williams, etc.
2) COLONIAL PERIOD/REVOLUTION -- I agree with Dan1988. The CSA texts would emphasize the importance of the South's leadership in defeating the British and starting the new nation. George Washington's military leadership is a particularly proud point. So is Thomas Jefferson's states-rights viewpoints (I think the "limited government" viewpoint that many on the right draw from Jeffersonian philosophies would be the primary viewpoint of a modern-day CSA).
3) BUILD-UP TO THE CIVIL WAR -- this would have much more substance and importance in history texts than anything else. It would talk about the arguments of the War of Northern Aggression and discuss how they moved away from the initial intents of America's leading leaders who were, naturally, Virginia-based.
4) CIVIL WAR -- Obviously with a huge concentration on the military successes and leadership/soldiering of how a force limited in numbers and supplies could take down the aggressor. It's kind of how our texts tend to view the Revolutionary War -- with the CSA as an underdog as sorts. There is also a lot of emphasis on Jefferson Davis and the early days of CSA politics.
5) AFTERMATH -- The South rebuilds from the war. However, it cannot get by just on agriculture alone. Thankfully, England and France invest in the CSA to help rebuild its ruined infrastructure. New roads, ports and the like are built. The CSA also starts developing its infant industrial sector.
6) INDUSTRY AND SLAVERY -- The CSA sees a blossoming of its industry -- steel and textile industries boom. Much like China today, it can make goods cheaper than its neighbors to the north and benefits via exports. Manufacturing also helps the CSA rebuild its military, which its government sees as a primary goal due to a potential war with the North once again. The diversifying economy makes the Southern states wealthier/healthier. But it also lessens the need for agriculture as it is no longer the dominant source of income. However, moving slaves into a factory setting proves difficult -- there are a few factory takeoves and revolts.
As such, the wealthy owners of industry (many of the plantation owners diversified and also own the factories) have less of a need for slaves. This, along with pressure from its major trading partners causes slavery to die a slow death. Slaves still exist as late as the 1890s, but by that time it's anachronistic.
7) RELATIONS WITH THE NORTH -- There was much political jockeying in the aftermath of the Civil War and high tensions, particularly over border issues and access rights. But, as neither side wanted (or was capable) of fighting another protracted battle, an easy peace settled in.
8) THE GREAT MIGRATION/SEGGREGATION -- Southerners fear the impacts of a black underclass. As a result, the CSA strikes a deal with the USA -- the North will accept black migrants from the North, in exchange for lower tariff rates for agricultural products. Many blacks migrants move north for better opportunities.
Blacks that stay in the CSA find themselves in a separate-but-eqal situation. Southern industrialists and plantation owners hire blacks but do so at lesser wages than their white counterparts. Blacks, politically, are not allowed to vote. Some Southern politicians fight for the rights for blacks to vote but are few and far between. Black schools are separate from white schools; neighborhoods are seggregated, etc.
However, much of the black population of the South moves to the North from 1880 - 1910.
9) WORLD WAR I -- The CSA backs its ally/trading partner England in WWI and joins the battle before the USA does. The CSA army, in its first major action (it stayed out of affairs in Cuba and was largely isolationist and did not expand past its initial borders) since the Civil War, fares well. Its leaders follow in the fine tradition of Robert E. Lee (its main military school is known as the Lee School and is based at Bull Run) and they're accreddited for much of the success of the allies. It's widely viewed that their military is better than the wealther USA's due to its strength in leadership and very willing troops.
WWI also creates greater ties between the USA and the CSA. From this point forward, the two sides have separate militaries and foreign policy shaping bodies. However, there's an unspoken agreement that the two will, mostly, move foot-in-step.
10) THE DEPRESSION -- The Great Depression causes poverty and stryfe just as it does throughout the rest of the world.
Politically, Huey Long emerges from Louisiana as an outspoken progressive. At the same time, factory workers in the South follow workers in the North in unionization efforts. This works to some affect -- but, more so than in the USA, inudstrialists manage to crack down on strikes. Long's agenda does take a foothold in some quarters; however he fails to win the presidency but does have the CSA's Congress move away from its traditional right-wing stance and more towards the middle. The
11) WORLD WAR 2 -- The CSA joins the war efforts in Germany once Great Britain and France do. However, with no states on the Pacific, it does not join the battle against Japan.
The CSA army once again proves itself worthy -- its stunning leadership and disciplined troops are viewed as the best in the war and are more respected than US forces. Douglas Macarthur emerges as a CSA icon for his efforts comandeering the Atlantic fleet (much more aggressive than it was in OTL) and is elected president after the war ends.
The US navy struggles against Japan but eventually wins after Hiroshima.
12) POST-WAR/ARMS RACE -- The South, fearful of Communism, moves back to the right politically. It's economy, much like the North, blossoms. (At this point in time, there is an open border between the two nations.) Tensions do arise between the North and the South over the atom bomb, which the CSA does not have. A spy case in which Southerners pried away nuclear weapon secrets from the North heightens tensions and becomes a diplomatic incident. The CSA develops its own nuclear capabilities on par with the USA. The two nations end up developing joint nuclear ties in case of a Soviet attack.
The CSA economy rapidly increases after WW2 and, in almost every standard, matches that of the north.
13) THE TURBULENT 60s -- The CSA joins the USA in both Korea and Vietnam. A deseggregation movement begins in the CSA. Blacks, given the right to vote in the 1920s, protest en masse (with a decent percentage of white supporters) to enroll in state universities and end discriminatory practices. Martin Luther King, Jr. rises to local prominence but gains a very limited foothold.
However, racial tumult is a fraction of the race riots witnessed in Detroit, Newark and LA. Southern students/youth also do not, to the same extent, buy into the counterculture movement that their peers do in the north. George Wallace becomes president on a law-and-order/traditional values ticket.
The CSA and the USA break on Vietnam, the first time their militaries have diverged in the 20th Century. While the USA slowly pulls out due to a lack of support amongst its populace, the CSA stays the course as much of the population supports these efforts. North Vietnam and South Vietnam remain two separate countries, much like the Koreas.
The CSA also stays with a draft.
The split over Vietnam created tensions between Wallace and his US counterparts -- LBJ followed by Nixon. After Nixon's resignation after Watergate, Wallace gloats about his nation's superior ethics.
14) DESGGREGATION -- Deseggregation slowly ends, much like slavery did. A surprising figure emerges as a reason why -- Alabama football coach Paul "Bear" Bryant. After Alabama is upset by Grambling, Bryant realizes that black athletes can benefit his program. He pushes the state legislature to allow blacks to enroll in Alabama; other football coaches follow suit and blacks are soon admitted into state universities.
15) THE END OF THE USSR -- The USA and CSA once again merge their foreign policies similarly. Ronald Reagan and CSA President Howard Baker stand arm-in-arm as they order the Berlin Wall to fall. The Soviet Union collapses just as it unfolded in real life.
o OTL southern texts and schooling were even longer than northern ones on propaganda. After all, the poor cracker majority had to be kept happy with their, well, poor reality in exchange for the theoretical possibility of owning servants. Many travelers saw that the noth was far richer than the south because they had much more better-paying factories, angineerining, and finance. Economics HATE farming - most of those mansions were paid for by mansions of debt.
o Southern culture was pro-aristocratic. They were mostly populated by aristocratic English and are still like that. That means they a supply of official inferiors isn't optional. Notice, even in today's world, how much the GOP relies on supplies of propaganda-supplied inferiors; today, it's blacks and muslims.
o The need for inferiors whose lot is to the hard work is why we had first slavery and Jim Crow; and I can't see that going away. Though slavery's likely to've fallen to outside pressure, I bet both Jim Crow and South African apartheid would persist today ITTL.
o I'm also not seeing why black emigration would go down. Leaving your slaveowner was already illegal, and that hardly stopped the underground railroad. The border would still be as long. And that'd go far up after northern antiracism legislation. An all-Northern Congress would probably happily award them refugee status.
o I also think, that, as before the war, fewer nonwhite immigrants would stay in the South, for exactly the same reason. Mexicans were mostly treated pretty unfairly in Texas.
o Southern culture was pro-aristocratic. They were mostly populated by aristocratic English and are still like that. That means they a supply of official inferiors isn't optional. Notice, even in today's world, how much the GOP relies on supplies of propaganda-supplied inferiors; today, it's blacks and muslims.
o The need for inferiors whose lot is to the hard work is why we had first slavery and Jim Crow; and I can't see that going away. Though slavery's likely to've fallen to outside pressure, I bet both Jim Crow and South African apartheid would persist today ITTL.
o I'm also not seeing why black emigration would go down. Leaving your slaveowner was already illegal, and that hardly stopped the underground railroad. The border would still be as long. And that'd go far up after northern antiracism legislation. An all-Northern Congress would probably happily award them refugee status.
o I also think, that, as before the war, fewer nonwhite immigrants would stay in the South, for exactly the same reason. Mexicans were mostly treated pretty unfairly in Texas.
Why would this be the case. Surely somewhere between 1860s and today things would have changed they did so IOTL.
As an example of how things have changed IOTL. Texas no longer mentions Jefferson in their textbooks because he has regarded as "too liberal" in particular his views about religion. As a consequence many states that depend on Texas on their textbook printing ended up without Jefferson as well. Who would have seen this coming?
This is the perfect set up to end up having a large scale leftists revolt / socialist revolution. Or for the poor whites to go populist fascist.
[/QUOTE]
8) THE GREAT MIGRATION/SEGGREGATION -- Southerners fear the impacts of a black underclass. As a result, the CSA strikes a deal with the USA -- the North will accept black migrants from the North, in exchange for lower tariff rates for agricultural products. Many blacks migrants move north for better opportunities.
[/QUOTE]
Do you really think the northern whites are going to be OK with this. As far as they are concerned they blacks are to blame for the country loosing 1/3 or its territory.
mowque
Banned
Do you really think the northern whites are going to be OK with this. As far as they are concerned they blacks are to blame for the country loosing 1/3 or its territory.[/QUOTE]
reading a tad too much Turtledove? I don't understand this. Won't they blame the white Southerners who actually seceded?
How does this look
1. The Roots of Southern Identity
1. The Roots of Southern Identity
- Geography of the South
- Colonial Era
- Early Culture and Tradition
- Profiles of the colonies
- Causes of the revolution
- War and Independence
- The essential contribution of the South
- Portraits of our founding fathers
- Confederation and Constitution
- The first presidents
- Westward expansion
- Yeoman’s democracy
- Triumphs and Turmoil
- The War of 1812
- The Age of Jackson
- Tyranny of the Majority
- King Cotton
- Manifest Destiny
- Abominable acts
- Northern Avarice
- Abolition and Insurrection
- Watering the tree of liberty
- Reasons for Revolution
- Secession
- War in the East
- War in the West
- Treaty of Baltimore
- Profiles of our Generals
- Confederate Constitution
- Whigs, Southern Democrats, and Radicals
- Freedom of Trade
- The March West
- The Cotton Boom
- Allies abroad
- Culture and Tradition
- Yankee agitation
- Northern Agitation
- Political Deadlock
- The Cuban War
- Defeatism
- The Bole Weevil
- The Roundtable Rebels
- Constitutional Reforms
- Abolition
- Confederate Industrialization
- Confederate Innovation
- Return of Democracy
- Rise of the Populists
- Oil Barons
- Regionalism
- Blood for Oil
- War Abroad
- Security State
- Council of Nations
- Insurrection
- War Trails
- Safeguarding our Nation
- A Corporate State
- Revanche
- The Northern Menace
- Internal enemies
- Defenders of Confederation
- Our Glorious Future
- Globalization
- Confederate industry
- Confederate technology
- The next 20 years
reading a tad too much Turtledove? I don't understand this. Won't they blame the white Southerners who actually seceded?[/QUOTE]
You don't need Turtledove to come up with that conclusion.
OK maybe they don't blame it on the blacks, and they blame secession on the Southern aristocracy.
Do you really think they would still be OK with massive immigration into the country regardless of race? Immigration might still happen (legally or illegally) but I doubt any northern politician would just say it is OK for blacks to come in.