What Would a CSA History Textbook Look Like Today?

Interested in your thoughts as to how a textbook written on the results of the Civil War from the Confederate States of America perspective would look like today presupposing that:

1) The CSA wins the Civil War and separates after Lincoln sues for piece.

2) The CSA stays together after the war. It's a dicey picture at first, but economic partnerships with England and France keep it functioning to start. Then as the economy grows and time advances, it becomes more industrialized -- Texas and Atlanta look a little similar than they do today.

3) It's at about the same economic level as the Union, albeit with much greater wealth disparities.
 
Assuming that slavery was abolished decades, if not over a century ago, then that factor in their succession and its history would probably be severely downplayed in the history curriculum.
 

ninebucks

Banned
I'm going to differ with you on your third presupposition, in that I believe a surviving CSA is likely to take a massive swing to the Left by the early 20th century - precisely because the levels of wealth disparity caused by a slave-holder system would be totally unsustainable. The concept of the 'American Dream' is much weaker OTL in the South, and I believe political separation from the North will be enough to kill it completely - Confederate citizens will not believe the myth that the new world is a land of opportunity, where anyone who works hard can achieve prosperity; but rather they will see their country for what it is, a land where classism and economic oppression are rife.

And so, by the 1910s-20s, there will be a social democratic revolution, overthrowing the old landed élites, and installing a government of Poor Whites and Blacks. Meanwhile, the old élites flee up North and rebrand themselves to fit in with the Yankee aristocracy. The post-Revolutionary CSA definitely has at least one Black president before 1950.

So the history textbooks mandated by the Confederate Department of Education will probably have a nuanced take on the Confederate War of Independence. On the one hand, those who fought for independence were their enemies in the later revolution, but on the other hand, without their contribution, independence would have never been possibility. Confederate historians would emphasise that their nation is one with a dark past, but a bright future.

A possible table of contents for a Confederate history textbook:

Ch 1. Pre-Columbian peoples.
- This chapter would celebrate the indigenous inhabitants of the CSA, pointing out where applicable that the modes of social organisation of these peoples was far more egalitarian than anything practised in contemporary Europe.
Ch 2. Ancient Europe.
- A quick potted history of Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire.
Ch 3. Columbus and the Slave Trade.
- The discovery of the Americas and the near-immediate introduction of chattel slavery are taught as two sides of the same coin.
Ch 4. Pre-colonial African History.
- A quick look at the societies from which African Confederates were extracted from. Including the history of Islam in Africa.
Ch 5. The American War of Independence.
- This topic is taught much more open-endedly in the CSA than in the Union, (where the WoI is unanimously considered a victory for enlightenment values over arbitrary state power). Confederate schools teach that while there was certainly a lot of idealism among the Patriots, the baser motives of the Founding Fathers are also considered, (i.e. monetary greed, desire to encroach further into Indian lands), and the fact is taught that despite the high-minded principles of the Patriots, slavery was allowed to continue and women and the poor were disenfranchised.
Ch 6. Slavery and Economic Exploitation.
- This chapter is essentially a socialist political-economic critique of American expansion. The evils of this era are blamed strongly on the Northerners and the Southern élites.
Ch 7. The War of Confederate Independence.
- Both sides are criticised. The South for their immoral insistence upon protecting the institution of slavery, and the North for their greed, hypocrisy and trigger-happiness. However, individual acts of braveness from working class Black and White Confederate soldiers are applauded.
Ch 8. The Causes of the Confederate Revolution.
- It is emphasised that the CSA as it stood on the dawn of independence, heavily indebted to European powers, economically ruined, and with a generation of widows, orphans and war-wounded was almost immediately on a path to revolution. It is explained that the introduction of racially-integrated regiments towards the end of the War had a great deal to do with the formation of the Poor White/Ex-Slave Black coalition that would later seize control of the nation. The events of the revolution and its immediate aftermath are also covered.
Ch 9. The Global Revolution and the First Great War.
- The textbook again revisits the world outside of the Americas, describing the events that led to the successful socialist revolutions in Germany, Spain, Italy, Egypt, and Japan. The First Great War is described as a conflict between these socialist powers and the parasitical imperialist powers of Britain, France, Russia, and the USA. The hardships of the Confederate home front, the constant threat of invasion from the North, and the proxy war in Mexico are taught in this chapter.
Ch 10. The Inter-War Period, Second Great War and Decolonisation.
- Explores the massive economic strife experienced in this time, and the rise of Right-wing extemism. The Second Great War is portrayed as being humanity's lowest point, with heinous war crimes committed on all sides, leading only to bloody stalemate, culminating in the Deutsche Volksreich's atomic attacks against Britain and France. Attention is paid to the forced dismantlement of the British and French Empires and the establishment of the Permanent International.
Ch 11. The Confederate Golden Age.
- Explores how society changed after the end of the War, as new found peace, prosperity, and personal liberty were enjoyed by the CSA and its citizens. Key points include the broadening of the welfare state, the ascension of the new Caribbean states, and the conclusion of the non-aggression treaty with the Union.
Ch 12. The Communication Age and Cosmopolity.
- Describes how the introduction of new technologies have brought the world closer together, and greatly reduced the chance of a new Great War. Also asks students to consider how such trends may effect the future, specifically whether the traditional socialist ethos can survive cosmopolity, (i.e. globalisation), in tact.
 
I'm going to differ with you on your third presupposition, in that I believe a surviving CSA is likely to take a massive swing to the Left by the early 20th century - precisely because the levels of wealth disparity caused by a slave-holder system would be totally unsustainable. The concept of the 'American Dream' is much weaker OTL in the South, and I believe political separation from the North will be enough to kill it completely - Confederate citizens will not believe the myth that the new world is a land of opportunity, where anyone who works hard can achieve prosperity; but rather they will see their country for what it is, a land where classism and economic oppression are rife.

And so, by the 1910s-20s, there will be a social democratic revolution, overthrowing the old landed élites, and installing a government of Poor Whites and Blacks. Meanwhile, the old élites flee up North and rebrand themselves to fit in with the Yankee aristocracy. The post-Revolutionary CSA definitely has at least one Black president before 1950.

So the history textbooks mandated by the Confederate Department of Education will probably have a nuanced take on the Confederate War of Independence. On the one hand, those who fought for independence were their enemies in the later revolution, but on the other hand, without their contribution, independence would have never been possibility. Confederate historians would emphasise that their nation is one with a dark past, but a bright future.

A possible table of contents for a Confederate history textbook:

Ch 1. Pre-Columbian peoples.
- This chapter would celebrate the indigenous inhabitants of the CSA, pointing out where applicable that the modes of social organisation of these peoples was far more egalitarian than anything practised in contemporary Europe.
Ch 2. Ancient Europe.
- A quick potted history of Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire.
Ch 3. Columbus and the Slave Trade.
- The discovery of the Americas and the near-immediate introduction of chattel slavery are taught as two sides of the same coin.
Ch 4. Pre-colonial African History.
- A quick look at the societies from which African Confederates were extracted from. Including the history of Islam in Africa.
Ch 5. The American War of Independence.
- This topic is taught much more open-endedly in the CSA than in the Union, (where the WoI is unanimously considered a victory for enlightenment values over arbitrary state power). Confederate schools teach that while there was certainly a lot of idealism among the Patriots, the baser motives of the Founding Fathers are also considered, (i.e. monetary greed, desire to encroach further into Indian lands), and the fact is taught that despite the high-minded principles of the Patriots, slavery was allowed to continue and women and the poor were disenfranchised.
Ch 6. Slavery and Economic Exploitation.
- This chapter is essentially a socialist political-economic critique of American expansion. The evils of this era are blamed strongly on the Northerners and the Southern élites.
Ch 7. The War of Confederate Independence.
- Both sides are criticised. The South for their immoral insistence upon protecting the institution of slavery, and the North for their greed, hypocrisy and trigger-happiness. However, individual acts of braveness from working class Black and White Confederate soldiers are applauded.
Ch 8. The Causes of the Confederate Revolution.
- It is emphasised that the CSA as it stood on the dawn of independence, heavily indebted to European powers, economically ruined, and with a generation of widows, orphans and war-wounded was almost immediately on a path to revolution. It is explained that the introduction of racially-integrated regiments towards the end of the War had a great deal to do with the formation of the Poor White/Ex-Slave Black coalition that would later seize control of the nation. The events of the revolution and its immediate aftermath are also covered.
Ch 9. The Global Revolution and the First Great War.
- The textbook again revisits the world outside of the Americas, describing the events that led to the successful socialist revolutions in Germany, Spain, Italy, Egypt, and Japan. The First Great War is described as a conflict between these socialist powers and the parasitical imperialist powers of Britain, France, Russia, and the USA. The hardships of the Confederate home front, the constant threat of invasion from the North, and the proxy war in Mexico are taught in this chapter.
Ch 10. The Inter-War Period, Second Great War and Decolonisation.
- Explores the massive economic strife experienced in this time, and the rise of Right-wing extemism. The Second Great War is portrayed as being humanity's lowest point, with heinous war crimes committed on all sides, leading only to bloody stalemate, culminating in the Deutsche Volksreich's atomic attacks against Britain and France. Attention is paid to the forced dismantlement of the British and French Empires and the establishment of the Permanent International.
Ch 11. The Confederate Golden Age.
- Explores how society changed after the end of the War, as new found peace, prosperity, and personal liberty were enjoyed by the CSA and its citizens. Key points include the broadening of the welfare state, the ascension of the new Caribbean states, and the conclusion of the non-aggression treaty with the Union.
Ch 12. The Communication Age and Cosmopolity.
- Describes how the introduction of new technologies have brought the world closer together, and greatly reduced the chance of a new Great War. Also asks students to consider how such trends may effect the future, specifically whether the traditional socialist ethos can survive cosmopolity, (i.e. globalisation), in tact.

Finally!!! Someone else who thinks that the CSA would not be anything like today's south. I agree that the CSA is bound for a revolution at some point. Whether this is a left/socialist one or a populist right-wing one doesn't matter, things are not staying like they were. Also OTLs southern racism was mostly a product of Tue south loosing the war.
 
Of course the Confederacy wouldn't be anything like it was in its origins. Is the United States anything like it was when it was first founded? I personally don't believe so, this country has only fallen from grace.

And I consider myself a patriot.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Of course the Confederacy wouldn't be anything like it was in its origins. Is the United States anything like it was when it was first founded? I personally don't believe so, this country has only fallen from grace.

And I consider myself a patriot.

Fallen from grace? We were SLAVEHOLDERS, and CRUSHED tax rebellions. Sure, some things, even many things were better then, but a lot of things were much, much worse.
 
Finally!!! Someone else who thinks that the CSA would not be anything like today's south. I agree that the CSA is bound for a revolution at some point. Whether this is a left/socialist one or a populist right-wing one doesn't matter, things are not staying like they were. Also OTLs southern racism was mostly a product of Tue south loosing the war.

I guess I can agree with that, to a point..............
 
Fallen from grace? We were SLAVEHOLDERS, and CRUSHED tax rebellions. Sure, some things, even many things were better then, but a lot of things were much, much worse.

We were also GENIUSES and SCIENTISTS. We created stuff, made stuff and sold stuff. We were the Don Draper of the world, and now were the laughing stock.
 
I think it would look like a thousand-page large-paper book, with thick covers. The front cover would have images of the CSA's greatest leaders, with flags waving in the background, and a name on the lines of A Southern Pageant or The Growth of a Nation or Our Confederate Heritage or something on those lines, with an author listed who may have died years ago; somewhere, it will say something on the lines of 10th edition. The back cover would have an especially large price on its bar code.
***
More seriously, lots of emphasis on abolitionist-inspired violence and the militaristic climate in antebellum America. The Republicans' connections to the Know-Nothing movement might be played up if the South became a magnet for immigrants (somehow). There might be discussion of the awful working conditions in the factories - in OTL, Southern sympathizers often emphasized the nastiness of Northern 'wage-slavery' before the war.
 

ninebucks

Banned
Also OTLs southern racism was mostly a product of Tue south loosing the war.

I partially agree. Obviously the fact that Southern Blacks were held as slaves, while the economic exploitation of Poor Whites was more subtle established pretty strongly among the culture very strong racial divisions. But then I also believe that Reconstruction did a lot of harm by reaching out to the emancipated Blacks, thus painting them as 'traitors to the South' in the eyes of their White countrymen.

Now, obviously I'm not saying that it was wrong to emancipate the slaves, or to invite them to take part in post-Reconstruction government was wrong. Rather that Reconstruction itself was an occupation of a land that had demonstrated its will to be independent, and was thus bound to cause more divisions than it heeled.

The pre-Civil War South was rife with injustice, and it was always going to be necessary for someone to be blamed for that injustice. In OTL, Blacks have blamed Whites, and Whites have blamed Blacks - but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for blame to be apportioned exactly where it belongs: at the feet of the Rich White Men who set those injustices up, and sent millions to their deaths to protect them.

I Like it!

did the confederacy get a pacific coast?

Personally, I don't think a westward expansion is likely for the CSA of my scenario. Indeed, I'd think they'd quicker give up territory in exchange for stability.

Specifically, in the period after Independence, but before the Revolution, there simply isn't any strength left to pursue expansion; especially once you consider that such expansion would be bound to reignite hostilities with the Union. And then, after the Revolution, the desire for the national prestige associated with territorial accessions would be replaced by the desire to improve the lot of the working classes.

Plus, something I didn't explicitly mention in my scenario, is the idea that the post-Revolutionary CSA would likely come to brand itself as a natural homeland for the African American people. A place where the social and economic needs of Black people are put before racial prejudices, and where a Black person can rise to high office. Likely in contrast to the Union, where suspicion of Blacks, (especially politicised Blacks), will be rife. As such, this CSA is not going to be looking to annex too much territory predominantly inhabited by Whites; or at least, if a White-majority area is annexed, a Black-majority area would be annexed to maintain the ethnic balance.
 
We were also GENIUSES and SCIENTISTS. We created stuff, made stuff and sold stuff. We were the Don Draper of the world, and now were the laughing stock.
the only reason we are a laughing stock is because we have so much exposure to the world. any country could be made a laughing stock if you pointed out every flaw. Aussies are violent and drunk, Russians steal software and are drunk, the Irish (see Australia). This can be done with any nation but the reason America is villanized is that were big and rich. Were the hip young attractive nation that gets into the club without having to wait in line. That's why they hate us.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
We were also GENIUSES and SCIENTISTS. We created stuff, made stuff and sold stuff. We were the Don Draper of the world, and now were the laughing stock.
We were an emotionally stunted nation that stole the identity of a dead veteran to bury our whoreson/farmhand past and start a new life of success that involved starting a family we cared little about, frequently harassing women and cheating on our spouses, drinking ourselves into a stupor by 2:00 and then driving around, smoking at least 42 cartons of cigarettes a day and who always stressed humility and intense privacy and emotional restraint, all while projecting the image of an immaculate and dangerously sexy executive?

When were we that?
 
We were an emotionally stunted nation that stole the identity of a dead veteran to bury our whoreson/farmhand past and start a new life of success that involved starting a family we cared little about, frequently harassing women and cheating on our spouses, drinking ourselves into a stupor by 2:00 and then driving around, smoking at least 42 cartons of cigarettes a day and who always stressed humility and intense privacy and emotional restraint, all while projecting the image of an immaculate and dangerously sexy executive?

When were we that?

Pretty much always :D
 
This is what I think the Table of Contents of a CS IB History book would look like.

Part I: A New World

Ch1. The Collision of Cultures

- This chapter covers the Pre-Colombian civilizations of North and South America
- The European visions of America
- The Voyages of Columbus and near-immediate introduction of slavery
- The Spanish Empire [1] (Though the text books have become fairer over the years, the Spanish Empire is still portrayed in a negative light.)
- The Protestant Reformation
- Challenges to the Spanish Empire

Ch2. Britain and its Colonies

- The English background
- Settling the Chesapeake
- Settling New England [2] (Not as much emphasis on this as on the settling of Chesapeake, the Carolinas, and Georgia).
- The English Civil War in America
- Settling the Carolinas
- Settling the Middle Colonies and Georgia
- Thriving Colonies

Ch3. The Colonial way of Life

- The Shape of Early America [3](this portrays the rift between north and south as something that was already in the making; as an unstoppable force of nature that was set in motion already)
- Society And Economy in the Southern Colonies [4] (this continues the trend set in the first lesson of this chapter)
- Society and Economy in New England and the Middle Colonies
- The Enlightenment
- The Great Awakening
Ch4. The Imperial Perspective
- English administration of the colonies
- The Habit of Self-Government
- Troubled Neighbors [4] (this deals with the New France, The Jesuits in New France, French Louisiana, and the decline of Spanish America)
- The Colonial Wars

Ch5. From Empire to Independence

- The Heritage of War
- British Politics
- Grenville and the Stamp Act
- Fanning the Flames
- Discontent on the Frontier
- The Crisis Worsens
- Shifting Authority
- Independence
Ch6. American Revolution
- American Society at War
- 1777
- Both Sides Regroup
- The War in the South
- Negotiations
- Political Revolution
- The Social Revolution
- Emergence of American Culture

Ch8. The Federalist Era

- A New Nation
- Hamilton’s Vision
- The Democratic-Republican Alternative
- Settlement of New Land
- Transfer of Power
- The Adams Years
Ch9. The Early Republic
- Jeffersonian era
- Divisions in the “Republican” Party
- War in Europe
- The War of 1812

Ch10. Northern And Southern Nationalism And Patriotism

- Economic Nationalism
- Era of “Good Feelings”
- Nationalist Diplomacy
- One-party Politics


Ch11. Jacksonian Impulse

- Jacksonian Era
- Nullification
- Jackson’s Indian policy
- Van Buren and the New Party System
- Assessing the Jackson Years


Ch12. The Dynamics of Growth

- Agriculture And The National Economy
- The Market Revolution
- Communications revolution
- Industrial revolution [5] (Focusing mostly of the lack there of in the South)
- The Popular Culture of the North and South
- Immigration
- Rise of professions


Ch13. Manifest Destiny

- The Tyler Years
- The Western Frontier
- Annexing Texas [6] (this sets the stage for why Texas joins the Confederacy and why it inevitably left it)
- Polk’s Presidency
- The Mexican-American War


Part II: The House Divided

Ch15. The Old South

- Distinctiveness of the South
- White Society in The South
- Black Society In the South
- Southern Frontier
- Nationalistic/Patriotic Movements


Ch16. The Fracturing Union

- Slavery in the territories
- Compromise of 1850 and hypocrisies of The North
- Foreign Adventures [7] (Deals with Cuba and US Diplomatic Gains in Asia)
- Kansas-Nebraska Crisis
- The Center Cannot hold [8] (the election of Lincoln, and the Birth of the Confederacy)


Ch17. The War of Northern Aggression

- The Balance of Force
- The Wars Early Course
- Emancipation
- The Union Near Victory
- The French Intervention after the Battle of Cherbourg [9] (This is the Pod. The Union Vessel USS Kearsarge sinks two French ships escorting the CSS Alabama. This brings enough national outrage in France to get the French involved even though Lincoln has emancipated the Slaves in the Confederacy.)
- From Civil War to World War: The Entrance of Russia into the War [10] (Details the various reasons for Russian intervention in the US Civil War on behalf of the Union.)
- Britain’s Tenuous Neutrality
- A War Around the World
- The Copperhead Rising
- Britain Enters the War
- The Failure of Union
- A Confederacy Victorious: Ending The First World War


Ch18. Rebuilding the Confederacy and the path to Federalization

- The Rebuilding Era
- The End of the Davis Era
- Politics in the New Republic
- Rebuilding Era in the US
- The First Depression
- The Texas Republic and the Grip of the French Empire
- The Richmond Convention
- The Federalization of the CSA and the Election of President Lee


Ch19. The Early Republic and the Hopes of Lee

- The Dreams of Lee: The Hopes for an end to Slavery
- Lee’s untimely Demise and the shelving of Manumission
- The Presidency of Longstreet
- Curbing the French Influence


Ch20. Growing Pains of a Nation

- The Downfall of the French Empire and the Emergence of the Confederate Power Base in America
- Confederate Purchase of French Guiana
- First Spanish Confederate War [11] (This first conflict between Spain and the Confederacy ends in the defeat of the Confederacy.)
- The Rise of National Industrialization, Through Incentives; and the begin of the End of Slavery


Ch21. The Emergence of the Urban Confederacy and the Middle Class

- Confederates Move to Town
- The New Immigration [12] (Though US receives more immigration than the CS; it still gets its fair share of immigrants. Most being Irish, and German.
- Popular Culture in a Dynamic Confederacy
- Education and Professions
- The Rise of Realism
- The Social Gospel
- Florida and Kentucky Emancipate [13] (Florida and Kentucky become the first States to emancipate the slaves by popular vote.)


Part III: A Modern Confederacy

Ch22. A Confederate Empire

- Texas Files for Re-admittance into the Confederacy.
- The Confederate-Nicaraguan War: Confederate Conquest and annexation of Nicaragua
- Intervention in The Mexican Civil War
- Confederate Territorial Gains and continental access to the Pacific. [14] (The Confederacy acquired Sonora, Chihuahua, and the Baja peninsula. This added to Confederacy’s access to the Pacific.)
- Union and Confederacy agitation [15] (The US a far more progressive and socialistic nation than OTL is not fond of Confederate Expansionism and the Imperialistic nature of its neighbor two the south. The two almost went to war, but diplomatic negotiations prevent this and lead to the US and CS jointly investing in the construction of the Colombian Canal, which cuts through Colombian Panama.)


Ch23. The Progressive era

- Elements of Reform
- Features of Reform
- Progressivism under Lee II
- Lee’s Second Term
- Re-writing the Confederate Constitution: The Third Election of Lee
- Ending Slavery under Lee [16] (We see the last few Slave states abolish slavery as well as the introduction of Universal Suffrage. Every man and Woman, no matter what color, over the age of 24 is given the right to Vote.)
- Limits of Progressivism


Ch24. The Confederacy and Union in the Second World War [17] (Britain, and France vs. Germany, Russia, and Austria)

- North American Neutrality
- The Slow Going War
- Collapse of Russia and France
- The War Ends
- A Dark Peace


Ch25. The Modern Temper

- Confederate and Union intervention in the French and Russian Revolutions [18] (In France a Reactionary, Militaristic, and Monarchist Faction proves victorious against the Communists and Napoleon V is placed on the throne. In Russia the Communists are defeated as well and Czar Nicholas II is returned to power)
- Rise of Reaction in the Twenties
- Culture of Modernism

Ch26. The Great Depression

- The Depression in Europe
- The Depression in the CS
- The Depression in the US
- The Social Cost of Depression
- War Between Ailing Nations [19] (The Second Spanish Confederate War. It is one of the contributing reasons for the Spanish Civil war. It ends in a Confederate Victory and acquisition of all of Spain’s Caribbean territory and the Philippines.)


Ch27. The World Marches Towards The Third World War

- The Rise of Fascism In Britain
- The Rise of Fascism in France
- Fascism Marches into Russia
- The Fall of Austria-Hungary
- Socialist Revolt in the US
- Japanese Militancy


Ch28. The Eruption of the Third World War

- Post Spanish-Confederate War Isolationism
- War clouds
- The Storm in Europe [20] (France, Japan and Britain make up the Axis against Germany and Russia)
- The Storm in the Pacific


Ch29. The Third World War

- The Confederacy’s early battles [21] (The Confederacy is at war with Japan, which is allied with Britain; other than that the Confederacy is not part of the War in Europe.)
- Mobilization on the Home Front
- Desegregation of the Armed Forces
- Leapfrogging to Tokyo
- Germany Ushers in the Atomic Age
- The Confederacy and the Atom Bomb
- The Fall of the Paris-London Axis
- Peace at last


Part IV: The American Age

Ch30. Through the Picture Window

- “Time for A Change”
- People of Plenty
- A Conforming Culture
- Cracks in the Window
- The American Economic Union [22] (It currently contains the Confederacy, the US, Mexico, the Republic of Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Bolivia, Guatemala, Ecuador, the Republic of Alaska, and Chile)


Ch31. The Liberalization of the Confederacy

- The Election of William Keys: The First Black President
- The New Frontier
- The Tragedy of the Peruvian War [23] (After the Communists were elected to power in Peru and the nation effectively became a Communist dictatorship the CS, US, declared a police action and sent troops to intervene in the war just as they had in the French and Russian Revolutions. The war was long and bloody and Guerrilla tactics employed by the local communists and the Peruvian people, who did not see this as a war of liberation, made it cost more than had ever been expected. The US pulled out in 1969, but the CS staid in the war for three more years).


Ch32. Progress and Reaction in the 70’s

- The Democrat who ended the War
- Assassination of a President
- An Unelected President
- The Liberal Interregnum


Ch33. Democratic Revival of 1978

- The Martins Revolution
- Martins’ First and Second Terms
- Martins’ Third and Fourth Terms
- The Gore Presidency [24] (Nothing like OTL Al Gore. This world’s Jackson Gore is a strong Conservative Democrat.)
- Russia turns to Democracy


Ch34. America at the Turn of the Century

- The Election of Gorge Ramirez: The First Hispanic President
- The age of Pax Germania and Americana
 
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Finally!!! Someone else who thinks that the CSA would not be anything like today's south. I agree that the CSA is bound for a revolution at some point. Whether this is a left/socialist one or a populist right-wing one doesn't matter, things are not staying like they were. Also OTLs southern racism was mostly a product of Tue south loosing the war.

I with you up to the point of OTL Southern racism being a product of losing the war. Its a product of slaveholding and would be just as strong whatever the result of the ACW.
I personally believe that instead of the colour blind socialist picture painted above a more likely result is that when times get tough you are going to see a Populist takeover based on Poor Whites combining virulent racism with quasi-socialism or at least attacks on the Southern Aristocracy.
While TL 191 has a lot of flaws the general idea of the Freedom Party taking over in the aftermath of defeat and amidst economic hardship by attacking the "out of touch elites" and "lazy, ev0l, niggerz" is the most plausible bit.
 
the only reason we are a laughing stock is because we have so much exposure to the world. any country could be made a laughing stock if you pointed out every flaw. Aussies are violent and drunk, Russians steal software and are drunk, the Irish (see Australia). This can be done with any nation but the reason America is villanized is that were big and rich. Were the hip young attractive nation that gets into the club without having to wait in line. That's why they hate us.

Nah, we hate Americans because your people who come down to this part of the world are loud, obnoxious, and ignorant.
 
I'm inclined to think that the power and momentum of a class/caste system would be strong in the CSA, with poor whites extremely aware of their status being rescued from rock bottom by vigilantly keeping slaves and/or the descendants of slaves below them.

I'm sure not ruling out a sweeping cultural change among a large part of the working-class white folk, depending of course on excesses and abuses committed by the ruling class. I just think it'd have to overcome a lot of ground, a long tradition of "I look up to one and crap down on the other," that sort of thing.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I with you up to the point of OTL Southern racism being a product of losing the war. Its a product of slaveholding and would be just as strong whatever the result of the ACW.
I personally believe that instead of the colour blind socialist picture painted above a more likely result is that when times get tough you are going to see a Populist takeover based on Poor Whites combining virulent racism with quasi-socialism or at least attacks on the Southern Aristocracy.
While TL 191 has a lot of flaws the general idea of the Freedom Party taking over in the aftermath of defeat and amidst economic hardship by attacking the "out of touch elites" and "lazy, ev0l, niggerz" is the most plausible bit.
This fellow seems like somebody who would play a big role in any racist populist putsch.
 

loughery111

Banned
Nah, we hate Americans because your people who come down to this part of the world are loud, obnoxious, and ignorant.

Ah, yes, because every tourist you've ever sent abroad has been a paragon of quiet-spoken politeness and intelligence. All tourists, everywhere, have a bad rap, because they only rarely understand the local customs and language and are just as easily frustrated by their interactions with the locals as the locals are by them.

Additionally, stupid, asinine tourists attract more attention than well-spoken, polite ones, and the US sends very large numbers of tourists everywhere... thus, it is logical that we should have the worst reputation because we have the largest numbers of visibly obnoxious tourists. Even though we also have the largest numbers of quiet, polite ones.

As for New Zealanders... I've met a few, one or two were asses and most weren't... pretty much par for the course. So quit generalizing on the basis of wildly insufficient evidence.
 
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