What would a centralized Holy Roman Empire look like?

Let's say that the empire unifies in the 1500s, after a more successful Reichsreform. Instead of a collection of small states nominally part of the same empire, they are bound together in a more centralized structure.

So, my question: what would this empire look like? Would the various competing dynasties have to be stripped of their land for this centralization to succeed? Or is there some way that the federal structure could be implemented while the minor houses retain their land?

How would this unified empire effect the world?


(also, let's assume the Reformation never happens, so all of the HRE if Catholic.)
 
How much land did the various princes and lesser lords actually own, and how much of their resources depended on revenues and the like?

You don't have to beggar the nobles to break them - just defeat them militarily, then make them dance attendance at the imperial court. Louis XIV perfected it, but French kings had been doing it for a long time, and the combination was how they cut the duchies down to size. So I imagine that the Empire might remain outwardly a clutter of princely states, free cities, etc., but with a drastic reduction of 'states' rights,' and development of a grand Imperial court (not just for vanity but control), an imperial army, and the first stages of an imperial bureaucracy. The overall impression, by the 17th century, would be broadly comparable to France, a grand monarchy.

If the Empire goes Catholic, Protestantism is probably over, except as an underground movement. Even if Scandinavia and England are Protestant, will they cut themselves off long term from the rest of Western Christendom? The Church of England could easily drift back to Rome, if the whole thing isn't butterflied to begin with.

If the Empire goes Protestant, it could get weird. Henri IV doesn't need a Mass to get Paris, if Imperial support hands it to him - again if this is not all already butterflied. But what happens if a proto-Protestant Emperor rolls into Rome about 1530? Protestantism does not quite exist yet in 1530, and remember what Reformation originally meant. He muscles a reformist Pope onto St. Pete's chair, who calls an Ecumenical Council to clean up the mess and clarify the rules.

The religious end result in our time could be a Catholic Church that looks institutionally and theologically rather 'Anglican.' The Pope perhaps remains presiding bishop of Western Christendom, but final authority resides in a general council - or perhaps more likely in this scenario, the Pope becomes a de facto imperial appointment. The English monarchy from Elizabeth on did not have more than nuisance trouble from the Church of England.

Theology? Above my pay grade, but if this is a Protestant or at least proto-Protestant win, the Mass becomes a holy communion, and 'faith alone' becomes church doctrine. I have to wonder if 'scripture alone' doesn't get modified by people who find themselves in control of an ecumenical church, in a position to promulgate doctrine and a magisterium to teach it. :D

The fun thing is, the farther back you push the POD - or not so much the POD itself, but the proliferation of jumbo butterflies - the more the Catholic and Protestant outcomes blur into each other, finally becoming a sort of Erasmian reform.


This doesn't even touch on the political consequences. In broadest brush, the French monarchy is no longer the biggest kid on the European bloc whenever it has its domestic act together. The mostly German Imperial kid is at least as big, or somewhat bigger.

Somehow I get the picture of subsequent European history as an incredibly slo-mo version of World War I. Germany and France can't conquer each other, and given available military techs and doctrines, the likely outcome is great chains of fortresses, a 17th century Western Front. I don't mean a 300 Years' War, but however many wars through the 16th and 17th centuries that eventually all wear down to sitzkrieg. :eek:
 
I would argue it would have to be a federal state, based around the Imperial Circles.

What would the results be? Well, the smaller nobles (whose name escapes me), and the cities supported the Empeor, by and large. The Empire had begun some tentative moves towards Imperial taxation, so my guess is that the end result would be an "upper" and "lower" house, with the free cities in the lower house.

Hrmm.
 
If the entire HRE forms a single, centralized state then they will very much be the dominant land power of Europe; they'll have two of the wealthiest areas of Europes (Northern Italy and the Low Countries) and the sheer manpower of Germany to back it up with. France is definately going to find every ally they can in an effort to contain them; Poland and Hungary/Ottoman Empire (depending on the timeperiod) immediately come to mind.

If the HRE becomes unified under the Hapsburgs so that the resources of Spain and it's colonial wealth are added to the mix ... I don't know if a monster powerhouse like that could be contained. In that case, we might end up seeing the HRE actually live up to the "Roman Empire" part of its name.

Of course, the entire HRE being a strong central state is difficult to manage; the Emperor would have been tossed out and replaced by the electors before they let themselves be reduced to such utter impotence.
 

Susano

Banned
Of course, the entire HRE being a strong central state is difficult to manage; the Emperor would have been tossed out and replaced by the electors before they let themselves be reduced to such utter impotence.
There was, offically, no way to "recall" an elected Emperor. Of course, before the days when the Golden Bull regulated the election process that didnt stop people from proclaiming anti-Emperors, of course.
 
There was, offically, no way to "recall" an elected Emperor. Of course, before the days when the Golden Bull regulated the election process that didnt stop people from proclaiming anti-Emperors, of course.

There wasn't an official mechanism to remove an Emperor, but if he made enough of the Electors angry enough that might not stop them from declaring him deposed and offering up their own candidate for a replacement. As you pointed out, it wouldn't be the first time there was an "anti-Emperor," and if enough of the Electors support him then he can claim some degree of legitimacy and enough military force to mount a significant challenge to the sitting Emperor. The fact that any rival would likely get support from outsiders like France and the Papacy that emphatically opposed the formation of a strong, centralized HRE would also help.
 
Of course, the entire HRE being a strong central state is difficult to manage; the Emperor would have been tossed out and replaced by the electors before they let themselves be reduced to such utter impotence.

Why? You assume that the nobles were only interested in their power at the expensie of the Empire. Some were, but not all. And they recognized the need for some centralization.

Give it the proper incentive; a stronger Ottoman Empire, frex.
 
Why? You assume that the nobles were only interested in their power at the expensie of the Empire. Some were, but not all. And they recognized the need for some centralization.

Give it the proper incentive; a stronger Ottoman Empire, frex.

You make a valid point, not every noble was out to preserve their own powers at the expense of the Emperor's. However, IMO the problem lies in the fact that most of the HRE's neighbors were very much against seeing the Emperor become a powerful leader, so any dissident faction is likely to have external backing. A threat like the Ottomans could centralize the Empire, the problem would be maintaining that centralization over the long term once the crisis has passed.

I'm not saying the HRE couldn't be centralized, just that it would be difficult and require some skillful maneuvering on the Emperor's part because there are no shortage of internal and external forces who have a strong interest in keeping the Empire weak and divided.
 
Thanks for all the feedback, guys. But do you think that if it were to centralize, the minor dynasties would be allowed to keep their land? Or would they have to be evicted for this to work?
 
Thanks for all the feedback, guys. But do you think that if it were to centralize, the minor dynasties would be allowed to keep their land? Or would they have to be evicted for this to work?

Evicting them is not a very realistic option - that is pretty much going to pit the emperor against the entire landed aristocracy. Nor is it necessary. French nobles kept their land and still danced attendance on le roi.

A house involved in rebellion can presumably lose their lands in the equivalent of an attainder, but even then, land and title were often restored later.
 
Evicting them is not a very realistic option - that is pretty much going to pit the emperor against the entire landed aristocracy. Nor is it necessary. French nobles kept their land and still danced attendance on le roi.

A house involved in rebellion can presumably lose their lands in the equivalent of an attainder, but even then, land and title were often restored later.

I'd agree with that. It could be like the German Empire... the individual states were allowed to keep their dynasties, but were centralized under the empire.
 
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