What were the worst Allied mistakes after 1942?

An Enigma machine had already been captured when U-110 was captured in May 41 though IIRC, the documentary that 'revealed' the real reason for the Dieppe raid did suggest it was a more advanced version.

Yeah, the Germans did update their codes and even the machines every so often, which often necessitated new pinch operations.

We tried, the Germans were able to parry the thrust; this was basically what Third Army attempted OTL.

Third Army's thrust was into the side of the salient, not the base. I don't recall any attempt at the base of the salient ever being made, although it may simply not have been possible because of the road network or something.
 
I wouldn't be remotely so dismissive of an accredited military historian who has spent two decades studying the raid. The theory is based on a lot of sensible extrapolation, since as I mentioned the actual documents which would offer definitive prove it have not yet been released, but the evidence for it is strong.

That's a very interesting read, thanks.

I mean, it's entirely circumstantial, but it does make sense - in the context of the previous pinch operations, the war at sea and the value of cryptography.

Certainly it seems reasonable to assume that at the very least a pinch operation was an objective of the raid. The question is really whether it was the objective. But really, the public objectives seem less valuable than this purported one.
 
I've actually been reading about British domestic tank design and manufacturing during WW2 recently. It reads a lot like the Germany's own woes in that field, particularly in the early and mid-war. The main differences is that there's less in the way of rare metal shortages and the Americans are there to make up the difference in output.

Unlike Germany though Britain was building 10s of thousands of medium and heavy bombers - something Germany was not!

Its interesting they start with one of the best tanks (all 2 of them) and end with the best tank
 
Not bombing the electrical infrastructure of Germany in general in 1943 and the RAF not keeping up their attacks on the Ruhr. Both could've easily brought the German industrial output to complete collapse in 1943, probably shaving off 12-18 months of the war in Europe.

Of course the German industrial machine collapsing in 43 does probably mean the Soviets control everything up to the Rhine at the least. Maybe add Benelux and part of France to the list. Be interesting if France ended up divided East/West Germany style.
 
Of course the German industrial machine collapsing in 43 does probably mean the Soviets control everything up to the Rhine at the least. Maybe add Benelux and part of France to the list. Be interesting if France ended up divided East/West Germany style.

I wouldn't go that far, as the Soviets were not in a position for such an advance in 1943 and German defenses in the West were sufficiently not-existent in 1943 that ROUNDUP or SLEDGHAMMER could work in this environment.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
An Enigma machine had already been captured when U-110 was captured in May 41 though IIRC, the documentary that 'revealed' the real reason for the Dieppe raid did suggest it was a more advanced version.
The Heer and Luftwaffe used a different machine than the KM. The KM also used a very different secondary setting method (the KM even used a different number of characters per group (four) than the other branches that used five character groups). While the machine captured from the U-110 was very important, any additional machines, especially either a Heer or Luftwaffe set, and any secondary code books would be of immense value.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
Pretty much, which is why Bastogne was so crucial.

I'm not particularly well read on the Bulge, but I found this lecture interesting (including clearly showing the logging trails that they were trying to put armored divisions down).

Mr. Steven Zaloga outlined his argument that the German offensive through the Ardennes Forest, known as the “Battle of the Bulge,” hinged on the first days of the attack. The only Americans to hold their section of the line capitalized on German planning mistakes pushing back one of the primary components of the attack, the 12th SS Panzer Division. The failure of the 12th in the battles of Krinkelterwald, Krinkelter-Rocherath, and Dom Butenbach against portions of three U.S. Army infantry divisions was essential to the German defeat, well before the fighting at Bastogne.
 

marathag

Banned
What, Afghanistan where the Russians did considerably better then the Americans did, strategically speaking,
Considering both ended up costing both Powers far more than they were worth, and both States down in the end, it still F-
grades to both.

I've noted that the RoE in SEAsia were goofy, but even if the USA could have gone full LeMay, that won't stop insurgents with high morale, when an untouchable next door country where supplies could be drawn from, exists.
Stalin's three big sins, are killing so many in the purges, being an all but Ally of the 3rd Reich from 1939-1941, and then not believing that Hitler was going to turn on him in 1941, despite Allied and info from his own spy network, that really was best in the World.
 

McPherson

Banned
What we know now shows that the Russians were still a military superpower. During the Cold War, they still mustered the largest and most powerful ground army in the world and the largest air force (which traded places with the Americans as the most powerful, depending on the area and time period you are looking at) led by an innovative and dynamic officer corps, all backed by a enormous and credible military-industrial complex. Whatever it's failings in it's civilian economy, and there were many, the Soviet Union was certainly no Potemkin Village when it came to it's military.

Large does not mean effective. The Test of Surrogates was definitive. I'll grant you have done a lot of research to destroy the Wehrboi myth of Germans fighting against the mindless hordes, but you have NEVER explained the incompetencies in industrial and logistics efforts that resulted in a three and a half year slog back from Moscow to Berlin, or the 9 MILLION battle deaths it took to do it. Show me them crossing two oceans and mounting Overlord and Forager within two weeks of each other. ESPECIALLY FORAGER. Then you might have a case for that son of a bitch, Stalin as being a "military genius."

What Afghanistan where the Russians did considerably better then the Americans did, strategically speaking, in Vietnam? Strange how you also have to reach to the very end of the Soviet Union, when the country was on the verge of collapse from stagnation, rather then it's peak in the 1950s or 60s when it was still at it's most dynamic. Then again, you seem to have trouble distinguishing that countries change over time so maybe that shouldn't be too surprising...

Afghanistan where the Russians RAN and where a few hundred Americans with ragtag northern coalition allies BEAT the scum from whom the Russians ran?

You mean the STAVKA that Stalin was a founding member of and led throughout the war? The one which every decent history of the war, including the memoirs of many of it's members written at a time Khrushchev was pressuring them to repudiate Stalin as much as they could, acknowledges how Stalin was an inimical and indispensable part of it? Oh, yes. Only an idiot could have found and led such an organization. :rolleyes:

I mean the STAAVKA that had to translate Stalin's garbage instructions and make it work, who had to fix Stalin's mistakes in late 1942 when bhe massed forces in the wrong front and pull off URANUS in spite of his stupidity. THAT STAAVKA
The Imperial War Museum website has a rather nice piece on British tanks of WW2, and the way pre-war failures put tank design & development in the UK in a position where they were almost always behind everyone else.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/brit...d-effective-tanks-during-the-second-world-war

The conclusion of the Imperial War Museum piece is as follows:
Too little too Late?

Apart from the moderate success of the Churchill and the later cruisers, the story of British wartime tank development is a sorry one. It had got off to a bad start as a result of insufficient pre-war funding, and a lack of political and military drive to develop the armoured forces. Uncertainty over the role of tanks led to the conflicting developmental paths of infantry tanks and cruisers. Defeat in 1940 prompted the panic building of inadequate designs, which impeded the development of more promising tanks. Rushed production and design flaws led to reliability issues. External constraints meant tanks had limited capacity for future armament upgrades. From late 1942, US tanks were required in increasing numbers to make up for the deficiencies of home-grown products. Only in 1944 was British industry able to deliver a tank reasonably fit for a fast-moving battlefield, and even then it was scarcely a match for its opponents.

It can be argued that the Cromwell – and indeed the more numerous Sherman – gave Allied commanders greater operational flexibility than the Germans. The famous Tigers and Panthers may have been judged superior on the battlefield, but they were over-engineered, mechanically fragile and too few in number. Mobility and reliability were more important to the advancing Allied armies.

But tanks like the Cromwell and the Comet should have been available much earlier. The Soviet Union showed it could be done. The T-34, produced in 1940, was arguably the best tank of the war. From the very start, the T-34 achieved that crucial balance between armour, firepower and mobility that eluded British tank designers for so long. It spurred the Germans to revitalise their own barely adequate tank force and embark on a technological arms race in which Britain quickly fell behind. British tank crews at the sharp end knew it only too well, and had every reason to bemoan the lack of protection and firepower which was a feature of their war.

a. The T-34 was an ergonomic disaster.
b. Its first version gun, the L-11 was a Grigory Kulik (Friend of Stalin and one of those Soviet "military geniuses") disaster that had to be "fixed" much like the short barrel PZKWIII had to be fixed.
c. The first runs broke down in battle just like the first Panthers and for exactly the same reasons, CRAPPY transmissions.
d. First runs got hit by German popguns and the seams where the welds joined plates POPPED. Very embarrassing and fatal to the Russian tankers. Later builds were better after QC was Siberian Gulag encouraged. But see e..
e. 40,000 died on the battlefield. Just how successful is that T-34 again?

Look at the poor humble maligned Sherman. Undergunned and undersized compared to the Germans and supposedly inferior to the T-34.


Very important bit.

The 75mm gun on the M4 was woefully inadequate to facing either a Tiger or a Panther frontally. So by late June the cry went out for the M4(76)s in the UK to be shipped to France for issue to the medium battalions.

Unfortunately, the new up-gunned Shermans did little to redress the problem. Despite what was shown on Ordnance Department tables, and despite what the tests in the UK had shown, reports from US tank units in the field indicated that the new 76mm guns were no better than the old 75mm guns when it came to facing Panthers and Tigers. Something was wrong.

The experiences of the British, however, seemed to justify their confidence in the 17pdr. Their up-gunned Sherman “Firefly” tanks were indeed apparently capable of handling Tigers and Panthers.

nstrate this, an impromptu test firing was conducted at Balleroy, in Normandy, against a captured Panther tank. US First Army was provided with a British 17pdr, with new APDS (discarding sabot) ammunition. There was no formal report or minutes written from this test firing. However photos of the results were routed through US field commanders in Normandy. The results were summarized in a subsequent report:

… in firing conducted by First U.S. Army at Balleroy on 10 July 44, 5 rounds were fired at the front plate of a Panther tank at 700 yards. Examination of pictures of this firing indicates that the first round struck the mantlet, the second between the track and the nose plate, the third at the junction of the nose and glacis and penetrated. The fourth and fifth were fair hits on the glacis and both penetrated.

In contrast to this, field reports indicated that the 76mm gun was failing to penetrate the Panther’s glacis under any circumstances.

A sense of betrayal quickly developed. US tankers were surprised by the poor performance of the US 75mm gun against the panzers, and even more surprised when the new “hot” 76mm gun did no better.

What was not clearly known at the time was that there was a flaw in the nature of US testing. US Army Ordnance had full belief that ductile armour made safer protection. What this means is that US tanks were made of relatively soft and flexible armour. 240 BHN was the standard for US rolled homogenous plate, while US cast armour, such as found on the M4’s turret and the hull of the M4A1, was often as soft as 210 or 220 BHN. This compares with German armor which ranged from about 260 BHN for their thickest plates, to over 340 BHN for thin armor. The 50mm on the front of the MkIV was face-hardened to 588BHN with 365 homogenous behind it, making it far tougher than the test plate from Shoeburyness.

The benefits of softer more ductile plate are two-fold. First, it is easier to work with in production. Second, when struck the armor tends to bend and flow rather than crack or shatter, and when a round does penetrate there will typically be less spalling and fragmentation carried into the interior of the tank with the projectile. The downside is that the armour will be less resistant to penetration in the first place.

Now, tankers will generally take exception to the notion that a government engineer somewhere is willing to see holes punched in their steeds so long as they don’t get too many “friendly” fragments coming into their crowded office space along with the several pounds of white hot metal travelling at thousands of feet per second that the enemy kindly provides with the new ventilation. Ease of production is even lower on the crewman's priority list. Indeed, the overwhelming view is more that the armour is generally there to keep things out, not to let them in with minimal added disturbance.

In fairness it is worth noting that Ordnance’s concept of minimizing the after-affects of perforation may well have achieved its stated goals, as was demonstrated by the relatively low casualty rates among crews in US tanks which were destroyed in action:

During the period of 6 June through 30 November, 1944, the US First Army suffered a total of 506 tanks knocked-out in combat (counting both those written-off and reparable). Of these 506 cases, in 104 cases there were no casualties associated with the loss of the tank. In 50 cases the casualties were not recorded. Out of the remaining 352 cases there were 129 KIA (0.37 per tank) and 280 WIA (0.80 per tank), for a total average rate of 1.16 casualty per tank lost in combat.

How much this is due to design aspects such as ammunition storage or escape hatches, and how much is due to the ductility of the armor, can not be assessed. And how many more tanks were destroyed in action in the first place, because of their softer armor, is up for anyone’s guess. There is certainly an argument to be said that a Panther's long 7.5cm would go through an M4 even if it had harder armour, so perhaps the engineers in hindsight made the better call, but we could go into what-ifs for ever. I digress.

What can be observed, however, is that US Ordnance testing was done on US Ordnance armour plates. The Germans, being the evil underhanded fiends that they were, did not use US Ordnance plates on their Panther and Tiger tanks. They used German plates, which were notably harder. So despite Ordnance test results and assurances, the weapons available to the US Army forces in Normandy could not reliably penetrate the frontal armor of the heavier German panzers.

The Panther was becoming a real problem for US commanders. Yet it seemed that the British had working solutions.

Now the fact is that the US tank gun/armor cycle was a bit off. BUT... as the Issigny tests in the article show, British wonder ammunition was somewhat inaccurate, so not being able to hit (PH57% at battle ranges vs explode into the plate 82% of the time.) versus half penetration, and a 80% chance of bailing out of a Sherman alive versus 17% for a T-34 and about 70% for a Cromwe;;. NOT TOO GOOD for the two qualities that a tanker values, being able to hit the Panther and SURVIVE his return fire, for either the Russian or the British machines.
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Now about the point I was making with the Experimental Mechanized Force that the British stood up before the economic crash. The point was that the British army TRIED and at the time was sort of succeeding in figuring out this thing that would be called "German Maneuver Warfare".

They lost a lot of lessons learned and they seemed during WWII not to relearn them all, but they were not the stuck in the muds that popular history made them out to be.

Did British tank doctrine result in screwups? The Sherman, it can be argued, is as much a British cruiser as it was influenced by the French Somua S-35 cavalry tank. By accident it became a MBT before there was such a thing... at least for the Allies. And... it did its job as part of the combined arms team, in spite of its unit for unit characteristics inferiority to a Panther. The British, it could be argued, were the source lessons learned for how American armor should have been employed.
 
Large does not mean effective. The Test of Surrogates was definitive. I'll grant you have done a lot of research to destroy the Wehrboi myth of Germans fighting against the mindless hordes, but you have NEVER explained the incompetencies in industrial and logistics efforts that resulted in a three and a half year slog back from Moscow to Berlin, or the 9 MILLION battle deaths it took to do it. Show me them crossing two oceans and mounting Overlord and Forager within two weeks of each other. ESPECIALLY FORAGER. Then you might have a case for that son of a bitch, Stalin as being a "military genius."

Yep, the Soviets sure proved incompetant in arming and supplying the largest land army in the world over tremendous distances and poor infrastructure. Why, look at how all those hundreds of thousands of artillery pieces, tens of thousands of AFVs, millions of small arms, and so for and so forth, just sat at the end of their factory floors, which themselves were oceanic distances from the frontlines. Look at how the all millions of tons of the lend-lease equipment just piled up on the dockyards, like the Allied aid to the Russian Empire in the First World War. All those good sent over the Pacific route, just wasted for lack of the Soviets ability to organize it's transportation across the Trans-Siberian railway in a timely manner and it's almost 10,000 kilometers of a single railway, 2,000 more kilometers then the distance between the west coast to Tokyo or almost 4,000 kilometers more distance then from New York to Berlin. How such incompetent industrialists and logisticians ever made it to Berlin is certainly a mystery to the age. :rolleyes:

Afghanistan where the Russians RAN and where a few hundred Americans with ragtag northern coalition allies BEAT the scum from whom the Russians ran?

I always love it when you reveal you know nothing about a subject. Because if you did, you would know that immediately after the Soviets "ran" (in the same manner in which the Americans "ran" from Vietnam), the Soviets Afghan Communist government (DRA) decisively defeated the Mujahideen at the battle of Jalalabad and continued to beat them right up until their final collapse. This is a considerably better showing then the first battle the South Vietnamese had to fight on their own against the North following American military withdrawal, which they decisively lost and were only stopped from being wiped out in it's aftermath by American air power. This shows the Soviets at least did a much better job equipping, training, and motivating the DRA's forces then the US did the ARVN.

The ultimate problem for the DRA was that it's ability to support said army was entirely dependent on Soviet funding, so when the Soviet Union collapsed, so too did Soviet aid. And when the paychecks stopped coming, their own army switched sides. At least the DRA could motivate it's soldiers to fight for a paycheck. The ARVN couldn't even do that (if not least because frequently the paymaster was cashing the paycheck for himself).

Looked at militarily the Soviets did quite well for themselves in Afghanistan, like the US in Vietnam. Their failing was the same as that as the US in Vietnam: an inability to translate their military victories into something that would politically meaningfully end the conflict (although they did manage to do better then the US did in Vietnam, it still wasn't enough).

I mean the STAAVKA that had to translate Stalin's garbage instructions and make it work, who had to fix Stalin's mistakes in late 1942 when bhe massed forces in the wrong front and pull off URANUS in spite of his stupidity. THAT STAAVKA

You mean the STAVKA whose memoirs often recalled how Stalin would frequently ask insightful questions that radically helped them improve their work in invaluable ways? Who often recalled how all Stalin's abilities at administrative tasks frequently resolved logistical challenges the military men thought insurmountable? That STAVKA?
 
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As said just above but also the marshalling yards were where the locomotives and wagons/loads were all concentrated together in a target size that should receive much of a raid.
That would be my thinking. I'd add rail tunnels, too, if they didn't seem so hard to actually knock out. (That might drive earlier development of a mini-Tallboy.)
 
Me saying they had more leverage then they thought does not mean I thought they had the leverage to tell Stalin to get out of Eastern Europe and it doesn’t mean I am arguing for WW3 to push out the Red Army here.

I thought my post was pretty clear on that, but I guess not.


OK but what was the leverage you think they had, that they didn't apply?
 
I just look at what we know NOW, compared to what we thought we knew. The number of Russians who died in the Great Patriotic War should have told us our postwar estimates of the Russians was WAY off. By Afghanistan We should have known for certain how weak they really were.


come on, you are taking the book ends and ignoring a much larger shelf there.

It's pretty clear the red army went through a pretty monumental development process during WW2 all the while fighting the majority of the German and co war machine nigh constantly for 4 years*. On top of that those losses were skewered towards the earlier years than the later (which isn't bad considering they generally went from defensive to offensive operations even if their opponents forces were degrading)

Afghanistan, isn't really the kind of war to judge conventional military might by, any more than Vietnam is to judge US military might, and frankly it's not like we did any better in either Vietnam or Afghanistan oursleves!

Seriously this is like looking at the US army 1941-to now and judging solely by Kassarine pass and Vietnam

So while I agree we in the west likely built up an image of the red army in our minds that was greater than the reality on the ground, and there were likely systemic issues in the red army** they would undermine the impressively large numbers of guns, tanks and uniforms etc. But the reality is it was never really tested since Russia never really fought a larger scale land battle post WW2, let alone against us so it's hard to judge (if pushed Korea is the closest to the kind of conflict we're talking about and even then there are big issues with drawing any conclusions for the comparisons we're talking about here).


*this is a big deal, the wallies were much more able to pick and choose when, where and on what scale to fight and apply changes and developments

**I'm thinking training and actual combat availability of men and equipment vs. paper battalions
 
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You mean the STAVKA whose memoirs often recalled how Stalin would frequently ask insightful questions that radically helped them improve their work in invaluable ways? Who often recalled how all Stalin's abilities at administrative tasks frequently resolved logistical challenges the military men thought insurmountable? That STAVKA?
You mean the STAVKA who knew, if their memoirs told the truth, they'd be shot & their families jailed? That STAVKA?
 
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