What were the worst Allied mistakes after 1942?

Here is a minor mistake: the Poltava USAAF airbase

They had no reason to believe the Soviets weren't going to steal and try to reverse engineer everything not nailed down, and knowing what they did about Soviet airfield air defense, they should have known that by antiaircraft guns what the Soviets meant was trucks with .50 cals and not flak, and that when they were hit by a German raid, there would be problems.

The inevitable NKVD detachment shenanigans too, should have been forseen.

The USAAF gained little tactically or strategically from the joint base.
 
Here is a minor mistake: the Poltava USAAF airbase

They had no reason to believe the Soviets weren't going to steal and try to reverse engineer everything not nailed down, and knowing what they did about Soviet airfield air defense, they should have known that by antiaircraft guns what the Soviets meant was trucks with .50 cals and not flak, and that when they were hit by a German raid, there would be problems.

The inevitable NKVD detachment shenanigans too, should have been forseen.

The USAAF gained little tactically or strategically from the joint base.

Interesting - I'd never heard of that op

What a cluster

I am not so sure about it being forseen as being a bad idea as the idea of basing Allied heavy bombers in Russia to allow them to reach (with escorts) places in occupied Europe that was not possible from the west - on the face of it is pretty obvious.

And lets face it Westerners could not and cannot comprehend the 'through the mirror glass' thinking of the NKVD types.

But what a cluster.....
 
As usual, you continue to demonstrate no knowledge in these affairs. After the repulse at Ordzhonikidze, the Germans made zero progress in October or November. There was no "still driving".

As usual, you continue to demonstrate no knowledge in these affairs. After the repulse at Ordzhonikidze, the Germans made zero progress in October or November. There was no "still driving".

And lets face it Westerners could not and cannot comprehend the 'through the mirror glass' thinking of the NKVD types.

The assumptions the Anglo-Americans were working under in regards to the USSR, even amidst the top leadership, seem quite strange to us living today, but that's because we have post-Cold War knowledge of the USSR they lacked. One example of this: as crazy as it might seem to us today, Churchill, Roosevelt, and even Truman for awhile thought that Stalin was one of the moderates and had to report to some kind of "Council of Commissars" (the term Churchill used) that were made up of the hardliners. I recommend "From World War to Cold War" by David Reynolds, who gives a rather good overview of the assumptions both the British and the Americans were working with when it came to their attempts at cooperation, both for the war and in it's aftermath, with the Soviets.
 
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McPherson

Banned
As usual, you continue to demonstrate no knowledge in these affairs. After the repulse at Ordzhonikidze, the Germans made zero progress in October or November. There was no "still driving".

AS USUAL.

And yet, modern war—and the peculiar Ger- man variant of it, Bewegungskrieg, remained unpredictable. Even in extremis, with a balance of forces that had gone bad and a logistical situation that edged ever closer to disaster, the Wehrmacht could still show occasional flashes of the old fire. Take the Caucasus. As the summer turned into fall, with the Black Sea front frozen in place, the focus of the campaign shifted to the east, along the Terek. The last of the major rivers in the region, it was deep and swiftly flowing, with steep, rocky banks that sheltered a number of key targets: the cities of Grozny and Ordzhoni kidze (modern Vladi kavkaz), as well as the Ossetian and Georgian military roads. These roads were the only two routes through the mountains capable of bearing motor traffic, and taking them would give the Wehrmacht effective control of the Caucasus. The Georgian Road was the key. Running from Ordzhoni kidze down to Tbilisi, it would give the Germans the potential for a high-speed drive through the mountains to the Caspian Sea and the rich oil fields around Baku, the greatest potential prize of the entire campaign.

By October, First Panzer Army had concentrated what was left of its fighting strength along the Terek. Col. Gen. Eberhard von Mackensen’s III Panzer Corps was on the right, LII Corps in the center, and XXXX Panzer Corps on the left, at Mozdok. On October 25, Mackensen’s corps staged the last great set-piece assault of the Caucasus campaign, aiming for an envelopment of the Soviet Thirty-seventh Army near Nalchik. Mackensen had the Romanian 2nd Mountain Division on his right, and much of his corps’ muscle (13th and 23rd Panzer Divisions) on his left. The Romanians would lead off and punch a hole in the Soviet defenses, fixing the Thirty-seventh Army’s attention to its front. The next day, two panzer divisions would blast into the Soviet right, encircling the defenders and ripping open a hole in the front. Once that was done, the entire corps would wheel to the left (east), heading toward Ordzhonikidze.

It went off like clockwork. The Romanians opened the attack on October 25th, along with a German battalion (the 1st of the 99th Alpenjäger Regiment). Together they smashed into Soviet forces along the Baksan River and penetrated the front of the Thirty-seventh Army, driving toward Nalchik across three swiftly flowing rivers, the Baksan, Chegem, and Urvan.

Ju 87 Stukas supported the attack, achieving one of the war’s great victories by destroying the Thirty-seventh Army’s headquarters near Nalchik, a blow that left the Soviet army leaderless in the first few crucial hours of the attack.

The next evening, the two panzer divisions attacked by moonlight, crossing the Terek and achieving complete surprise. Soon they had blocked the roads out of Nalchik, and the Wehrmacht had achieved one of its few Kesselschlachts in the entire Caucasus campaign. Some survivors of the Thirty-seventh Army limped back toward Ordzhonikidze; others apparently threw off discipline and fled to the mountains directly to the south.

Now the Panzer divisions wheeled left, heading due east, with the mountains forming a wall directly on their right. With 23rd Panzer on the right and 13th on the left, it was an operational spearhead reminiscent of the glory days of 1941. On October 27 and 28, the panzers crossed one river after the other, the Lesken, the Urukh, the Chikola, with the Soviets either unwilling or unable to form a cohesive defense in front of them. By October 29, they had reached the Ardon River, at the head of the Ossetian Military Road; on November 1, the 23rd Panzer Division took Alagir, closing the Ossetian road and offering the Wehrmacht the possibility of access to the southwestern Caucasus through Kutais to Batum. At the same time, the 13th Panzer Division was driving toward the corps’ main objectives: Ordzhonikidze and the Georgian Military Road.

Kleist now ordered the division to take the city on the run. That evening, 13th Panzer’s advance guard was less than ten miles from Ordzhonikidze. It had been through some tough fighting, and just the day before, its commander (Lt. Gen. Traugott Herr) had suffered a severe head wound. Under a new commander, Lt. Gen. Helmut von der Chevallerie, it ground forward over the next week against increasingly stiff Soviet opposition; indeed, so heavy was Soviet fire that the new general had to use a tank to reach his new command post.

On November 2, 13th Panzer took Gizel, just five miles away from Ordzhonikidze. The defenders, elements of the Thirty-seventh Army, heavily reinforced with a Guards rifle corps, two tank brigades, and five antitank regiments, knew what was at stake here and were stalwart in the defense. Mackensen rode his panzer divisions like a jockey, first deploying the 23rd Panzer Division on the right of the 13th, then shifting it to the left, constantly looking for an opening. Closer and closer to Ordzhonikidze they came. There was severe resistance every step of the way, with the 13th Panzer Division’s supply roads under direct fire from Soviet artillery positions in the mountains, heavy losses in the rear as well as the front.

The image of two punch-drunk fighters is one of the oldest clichés in military history, but perfectly de- scribes what was happening. It was a question of re- serves, physical and mental: Who would better stand the strain in one of the century’s great mano a mano engagements? It had it all: bitter cold, swirling snowstorms, and a majestic wall of mountains and glaciers standing watch in the background. The road network failed both sides, so columns had to crowd onto branch roads where they were easy prey for enemy fighter-bombers. Rarely have Stukas and Sturmoviks had a more productive set of targets, and the losses on both sides were terrible.

By November 3, the 13th Panzer Division had fought its way over the highlands and was a mere two kilometers from Ordzhonikidze. By now, a handful of battalions was carrying the fight to the enemy, bearing the entire weight of the German campaign in the Caucasus. For the record, they were the 2nd of the 66th Regiment (II/66th) on the left, II/93rd on the right, with I/66th echeloned to the left rear. Deployed behind the assault elements were the I/99th Alpenjäger, the 203rd Assault Gun Battalion, and the 627th Engineer Battalion. The engineers’ mission was crucial: to rush forward and open the Georgian Military Road the moment Ordzhonikidze fell.

Over the next few days, German gains were measured in hundreds of meters: six hundred on November 4, a few hundred more on November 5. By now, it had become a battle of bunker-busting, with the German assault formations having to chew their way through dense lines of fortifications, bunkers, and pillboxes. Progress was slow, excruciatingly so, but then again the attackers didn’t have all that far to go. Overhead the Luftwaffe thundered, waves of aircraft wreaking havoc on the Soviet front line and rear, and pounding the city itself. Mackensen’s reserves were spent, used up a week earlier, in fact. It must have been inconceivable to him that the Soviets were not suffering as badly or worse.

November 6, to be exact. And I did write that in reference to the claim that they had been stopped in SEPTEMBER. (^^^)

So then, back to the error of suggesting that Sledgehammer could help the inept Russians if they were more in a panic or a funk than in our RTL?
 

I like how you leave out the paragraph immediately before it which far more completely disproves your point in a single line:

In operational terms, the “dual offensive” was now firmly stuck in neutral, and this at a moment when Rommel, too, had come to a dead stop in the desert. His own last shot—the offensive at Alam Halfa, August 30 to September 7—had also broken down against a revived British Eighth Army. The Wehrmacht was in deep trouble, shorn of its own ability to maneuver and seemingly helpless against enemy strength that was waxing on all fronts.

So in sum, your link says that the Germans had come to a operational stop by September just as Rommel's: ie the drive on the oil fields had stopped. It then describes some tactical gains the Germans managed that nonetheless fell short of their operational objective which, quite notably, were not an oilfield.
 
To throw my two cents into the SLEDGEHAMMER issue, I'd like to point out by October/November the beaches of France usually have Force 5 Winds IIRC. Those are enough to sink landing craft and make Naval Gunfire Support (NGS) questionable, at best. Even further, the overall reduced daylight hours and poor weather in general make air support and NGS impossible, due to the visual issues of such. Finally, by October/November, beyond what the Germans have "naturally" in place, they can send in 10th Panzer Division, HG Panzer Divisions, 2nd Parachute Division and the entirety of the II SS Panzer Corps still forming. Without NGS and air support, six green Anglo-American divisions vs six veteran, largely elite divisions (and mostly Panzer divisions to boot!) isn't great odds.

In short, it'll end in a disaster and even worse is that the loss of Lend Lease will result in a Soviet collapse in 1942/1943.
 

McPherson

Banned
I like how you leave out the paragraph immediately before it which far more completely disproves your point in a single line:

So in sum, your link says that the Germans had come to a operational stop by September just as Rommel's: ie the drive on the oil fields had stopped. It then describes some tactical gains the Germans managed that nonetheless fell short of their operational objective which, quite notably, were not an oilfield.

In sum it says you were wrong as they were on offense until November. No further discussion from this end, since it is settled AFAIAC. Have a nice evening, ON.

McP.
 
Something which I don't think has been mentioned – at least nothing came up via search – is closing the Strait of Messina during the invasion of Sicily, IIRC mostly due to communication problems between different arms. The defenders in Sicily included a German panzer division, two panzergrenadier divisions, a parachute division, and assorted Italian units. Considering that the German high command was in favour of abandoning the defence of most of Italy by withdrawing to something like our timeline's Gothic line with Hitler only being convinced otherwise by Kesselring's intervention, if a large part of the Sicilian troops have been cut off and captured it makes things more difficult for them and undercuts Kesselring's position. Not having to fight up most of the peninsula would be nice.
 
At Torch there was just 3 LSTs - the 3 original British ones - Maracaibo-class LST - the only ones then available

Granted a number had been built in the US in 1942 but as far as I am aware they did not take part in the initial landings

So any landings in France in 1942 would have just 3 LSTs
 

McPherson

Banned
At Torch there was just 3 LSTs - the 3 original British ones - Maracaibo-class LST - the only ones then available

Granted a number had been built in the US in 1942 but as far as I am aware they did not take part in the initial landings

So any landings in France in 1942 would have just 3 LSTs

I should have pointed that out when I read it. :oops:
 

McPherson

Banned
Poltava USAAF airbase

That was a disaster, but not because of the USAAF. There was a certain triangular logic to round robinning the Germans, from the UK, Italy and Ukraine, as part of a bombing triangle, but then Stalin was "the world's greatest military genius" and his air farce turned in a PVO Strany (Russian air defense command) performance. I still think I can top that bolo with another post 1942 American air farce debacle.
 
That was a disaster, but not because of the USAAF. There was a certain triangular logic to round robinning the Germans, from the UK, Italy and Ukraine, as part of a bombing triangle, but then Stalin was "the world's greatest military genius" and his air farce turned in a PVO Strany (Russian air defense command) performance. I still think I can top that bolo with another post 1942 American air farce debacle.
Was 'Matterhorn' and supplying it by any chance part of Roosevelt's reasons for wanting the Ledo branch of the Burma Road constructed and in operation?
(Roosevelt really liked Chiang by the look of it, and wanted to give him every support possible.)
 
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