What were the Prussian and Russian objectives in the Polish-Saxon crisis of 1815?

raharris1973

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Well, I suppose if the Austrians really want Bavaria in this case, they can overcome Bavaria's resistance as a reasonable cost and expense.

...provided the Bavarians are on their own. Possibly the Prussians, Russians or (much less significantly) the French would oppose such Austrian aggrandizement.
 
One must remember the more "oblique" alignments, didn't Prussia have close ties with Sardinia during this period? And France with other Italian states?
Perhaps the realities of life were writ larger for those living it rather than we studying it?
Indeed, the alignment of states during the Congress of Vienna belied the popular belief that all was rosy in the allied camp.
I firmly believe that the Prussian/Russian alignment was unbeatable, should a land war have occurred, and would have pulled Italian and South German states into the conflict - despite their inability to provide effective manpower after their corruscating experience of the Napoleonic wars.
 
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Could Hardenbergs proposal of giving the deposed saxon monarch territories on Rhine in exchange for Saxony work?
 
Could Hardenbergs proposal of giving the deposed saxon monarch territories on Rhine in exchange for Saxony work?
The Prussians were arguing against the wettins getting anything because they were so loyal to Napoleon and the British wanted someone who could actually make the French think twice about trying to take the west bank of the Rhine again.
Prussian being on the Rhine didn't actually have much to do with them not getting all of saxony, that particular deal was about Russia getting poznan and Prussia being compensated with Saxony, Prussia becoming the shield on the Rhine wasn't even something they really wanted, was really more of something they just got stuck with because of their position of the weakest of the great powers, the fact that it turned out to be a good deal down the road doesn't change that
 
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Well, I suppose if the Austrians really want Bavaria in this case, they can overcome Bavaria's resistance as a reasonable cost and expense.

...provided the Bavarians are on their own. Possibly the Prussians, Russians or (much less significantly) the French would oppose such Austrian aggrandizement.


What Austria might get is a reversionary right to Baden.

OTL, the King of Bavaria was recognised as heir-presumptive in the event of the Grand-Ducal line dying out, but the GD got round this by admitting the son of a morganatic marriage to the succession. OTL, he got away with it despite Bavarian protests, but had Austria been the residual heir, I suspect he wouldn't have. And the Russo-Prussians might have agreed to offer this as a sweetener in return for Austrian acquiescence in the Poland-Saxony deal.
 

raharris1973

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What Austria might get is a reversionary right to Baden.

OTL, the King of Bavaria was recognised as heir-presumptive in the event of the Grand-Ducal line dying out, but the GD got round this by admitting the son of a morganatic marriage to the succession. OTL, he got away with it despite Bavarian protests, but had Austria been the residual heir, I suspect he wouldn't have. And the Russo-Prussians might have agreed to offer this as a sweetener in return for Austrian acquiescence in the Poland-Saxony deal.


Very interesting, so the map could end up like below, with *both* Prussia and Austria having Rhenish exclaves and being "stuck" with policing France duty. The Austrians technically having more frontage, but the Prussians having the more open ground of Flanders.

r5BC2lN with Austrian Baden.gif
 

raharris1973

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Maybe the parts of Bavaria the Habsburgs would most desire would be the northern, Franconian, portions, to make a land link to their Hessian and Palatinate (and possibly Badenese) possessions to the west.
 

raharris1973

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The Habsburg ferry service across Lake Constance would be very important, would both the Habsburgs and the Swiss have free use of the lake?
 
Austria (aka The Hapsburgs not the Habsburg - I think that's the name of an orrrible disease!!!) was after the Tyrol and adjoining areas, the lands closer to your centre of gravity are those most naturally sought after.
The more northern lands lend themselves to be cut off in war - easily lost and hard to garrison. Lands divorced of a common border with your centre of gravity are a liability, cannot be garrisoned with peace time forces, but have to have an Independant Command from the Army, and as such are less desirable.
Consider Vienna as the focal point, then imagine ever increasing circles from that focal point - the lands thus encircled are those best sought after by the Hapsburg Emperors.
Bohemia, the Tyrol, North Italy (and Venice) and the Balkans all suddenly seem of vital importance. Now consider Hungary - close enough to be Very Important; independant enough to be a massive problem.
The Austrian Netherlands at this stage were nothing but a liability to the Hapsburgs.
 
Austria (aka The Hapsburgs not the Habsburg - I think that's the name of an orrrible disease!!!) was after the Tyrol and adjoining areas, the lands closer to your centre of gravity are those most naturally sought after.
The more northern lands lend themselves to be cut off in war - easily lost and hard to garrison. Lands divorced of a common border with your centre of gravity are a liability, cannot be garrisoned with peace time forces, but have to have an Independant Command from the Army, and as such are less desirable.
Consider Vienna as the focal point, then imagine ever increasing circles from that focal point - the lands thus encircled are those best sought after by the Hapsburg Emperors.
Bohemia, the Tyrol, North Italy (and Venice) and the Balkans all suddenly seem of vital importance. Now consider Hungary - close enough to be Very Important; independant enough to be a massive problem.
The Austrian Netherlands at this stage were nothing but a liability to the Hapsburgs.
I too got the impression that the Habspurgs were keen to be rid of their disjointed territories, likely another reason why keeping an eye on France was a duty that fell to Prussia.
 
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