As it says in the title, what were the German War plans before Schlieffen came up with his infamous plan?
Was there any plan for a war with solely France vs Germany?There's a book about : Therence Zuber, The Real Geman War Plan, 1904-14. Relativly cheap, esp when purchased used.
In short : Moltke the Elder and Waldersee preferred the "East First" option and let plan for that.
With Schlieffen becoming Chief of the Great General Staff ... things started to change, focussing more and more on France as the first to target. However, Schlieffen knew, and let it play through several times, that a thrust to Paris via Belgium and/or the Netherlands was not feasible, ... not enough troops, unsure logistics.
The preferred 'solution' in these war games and staff rides was :
after the first advance into the lowlands France counterattacks in Lorraine and/or north and/or south of Metz/Thionville(Diedenhofen) with the german right wing then being redeployed to Lorraine/Luxembourg or 'just' attacking the french from there, causing a BIG Cannae in Lorraine with the (hoped for) destruction of most of french forces.
The famous/infamous "Schlieffen"-plan we know, was more a 'memorandum', than an actual, on deployment to be used plan, mostly showing, that for an action as described the german forces were ... not enough.
Moltke the younger 'just' took over, not really developing something own. Partially due to the already in life-time idolization of Schlieffen and perhaps not having the guts to voice against his former 'master'.
Dunno, if he had the intellectual capacity either.
In the end he successfully narrowed any thinking of military doctrine even more down to this 'legacy' of Schlieffen.
Was there any plan for a war with solely France vs Germany?
Latest with the 'official' ratification of the franco-russian alliance in 1984, due to the IMO unnecessary non-prolongation of the german-russian reinsurance treaty in 1890, it was clear to the german military, that in case of war they would have to face a "War at Two Fronts".Was there any plan for a war with solely France vs Germany?
No, the 1914 plan was unusual because it was the only plan available, previous years there were a number of plans.
Damn. You see, I'm trying to determine what Germany would have done if the Moroccan Crisis had resulted in a declaration of war by Germany (due to the nature of my TL, Russia is fighting a civil war and so Germany does not have to worry about the Eastern front)Latest with the 'official' ratification of the franco-russian alliance in 1984, due to the IMO unnecessary non-prolongation of the german-russian reinsurance treaty in 1890, it was clear to the german military, that in case of war they would have to face a "War at Two Fronts".
Damn. You see, I'm trying to determine what Germany would have done if the Moroccan Crisis had resulted in a declaration of war by Germany (due to the nature of my TL, Russia is fighting a civil war and so Germany does not have to worry about the Eastern front)
Damn. You see, I'm trying to determine what Germany would have done if the Moroccan Crisis had resulted in a declaration of war by Germany (due to the nature of my TL, Russia is fighting a civil war and so Germany does not have to worry about the Eastern front)
But only 2 ... of the mobile type (M-Gerät).It was only in 1913-14 that Germany possessed the mobile, super-heavy siege guns required to quickly demolish the Liege defenses even if the coup de main attempt failed (which it did OTL).
Please don't !I'll shut up now!![]()
But only 2 ... of the mobile type (M-Gerät).
They had additional 5 of the very immobile typ (150 metric tons, 10 railway-cars, needed a LOT of building prior to fire).
But they had also had some 30,5 cm very mobile (comparative) siege howitzers in 'commision' from Austro-Hungary, which also participated in the Liege action IOTL.
Unfortunatly I couldn't find yet, out how many they had ... leased.
Does anybody here (hopefully) know ??
Please don't !
Your comments and contributions are highly appreciated (at least by me).
Ups, overlooked that ... in the english wiki-site. THXNoMommsen,
Wikipedia says that the Germans used 8 of the Skodas at Liege (I don't vouch for the accuracy of this information, of course).
But only 2 ... of the mobile type (M-Gerät).
They had additional 5 of the very immobile typ (150 metric tons, 10 railway-cars, needed a LOT of building prior to fire).
But they had also had some 30,5 cm very mobile (comparative) siege howitzers in 'commision' from Austro-Hungary, which also participated in the Liege action IOTL.
Unfortunatly I couldn't find yet, out how many they had ... leased.
Does anybody here (hopefully) know ??.
NoMommsen,
Wikipedia says that the Germans used 8 of the Skodas at Liege (I don't vouch for the accuracy of this information, of course).
But the Wikipedia article on the Skoda says that development and testing of the 30.5 guns extended into 1911. Given construction time, I'm not sure they'd have been available in an Agadir-inspired war in the same year.
What I suspect is that, if the coup de main failed, the siege of Liege would take considerably longer than in OTL 1914, and a hook through the Netherlands would be likely.
Unless the French, moving into Belgium early to support the Belgian Army, are either defeated pretty convincingly there, or else accidentally weaken their center/south too much and the Germans break through.
I can't speak to the German side, as I'm not particularly familiar with it, but I think they would still have to move through Belgium to some extent. France had fairly substantial fortifications and the terrain advantage on the Franco-German border in Lorraine. If the Germans attack through their wouldn't they run into essentially the same issue the French did going the other direction in 1914? Plus, German military theory was heavily reliant on the idea of envelopment. To me, that seems to motivate for a swing through Belgium to envelope the French armies like they did in 1914. However, in 1911 the French were still using Plan XVI, not XVII, which was much more defensive in nature. It also gave more weight to a German advance through Belgium and allocated, IIRC, 7 corps to the Belgian border to counter a German advance. I don't believe Plan XVI envisioned an offensive into Lorraine at this point, as that concept emerged only in Joffre's later rewrites of the plan.So, if Russia was engrossed in a civil war, would Germany invade through central Belgium (north of the Meuse) at all?
After all, the need to beat France before Russia could intervene effectively, was the main reason for invading through Belgium in the first place.
Edit: I'm thinking they might settle for just going through Belgium south of the Meuse. That avoids the Liege problem and reduces friction with GB, while still broadening the front to a useful extent.
Maybe not Poincare but ... for sake of TTL ... maybe let a french Gabriele D'Annunzio type, trying to copy Leon Gambetta pop up [was there any figure, that with some butterfly-PoD-power could become that ?).The problem, as I see it, is this:
With Russia engaged in civil war, and therefore not available to do France's heavy lifting, France's leaders will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that might antagonize Germany. And if offense is accidentally given, will backtrack to whatever extent is necessary to repair the breach. Poincare was nobody's fool.
Now, it's possible that Germany might pick a fight with France nonetheless, but why, especially as it risks war with Britain? ...