What was the final moment that the CSA could've won the Civil War?

Anaxagoras

Banned
IMHO it was when the Confederacy picked Jefferson Davis as its President. I'm hard pressed to think of any US President as bad a national leader as he was.

Possibly. He certainly made a number of disastrous command choices, what with Bragg, Pemberton, Polk, and Hood. He made a number of very poor military decisions, such as declining to order troops from the Trans-Mississippi to make a greater effort to help defend Vicksburg. And while it might be said that his fierce determination and resolve was an advantage to the Confederacy (they certainly would have stood no chance with a weak-willed leader), in the end it was disastrous, for he kept the war going long many months after victory had clearly become impossible.

On the other hand, I doubt that Robert Toombs would have done any better and might have done worse.
 
Possibly. He certainly made a number of disastrous command choices, what with Bragg, Pemberton, Polk, and Hood. He made a number of very poor military decisions, such as declining to order troops from the Trans-Mississippi to make a greater effort to help defend Vicksburg. And while it might be said that his fierce determination and resolve was an advantage to the Confederacy (they certainly would have stood no chance with a weak-willed leader), in the end it was disastrous, for he kept the war going long many months after victory had clearly become impossible.

On the other hand, I doubt that Robert Toombs would have done any better and might have done worse.

Davis' problem with nepotism was notorious. His nephew was guilty of behavior at Gettysburg that should have gotten him court-martialed but for who his uncle was. Second worst general Lee had short of the rank coward Brokenbrough. His love for suck-ups (loyal followers??) was one of his worst qualities. Would rather launch purges of whole army command structures rather than fire one of his own admirers (hello Bragg).

Seriously, if you were Anaxagoras the Alien Space Bat:eek:, who you would appoint as POTCSA? No cheating using Yankees...:evilsmile:
 
A myth that. The only way the Rebels win at Gettysburg is on Day 1, in which we are talking the mangling of the AotP's I & XI Corps. Winning on Day 2 requires Unspeakable Seamammal levels of incompetence by the North and equal levels of luck and derring-do by the South.

I never said that the CSA would win Gettysburg. I said that was the time that they were beaten. Vicksburg was an important Union victory around the same time, and then Gettysburg broke another part of the CSA. The CSA had a chance of holding out if it decided to change its plans sometime before June 1863, but was almost definitively stuffed afterwards.

- BNC
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I never said that the CSA would win Gettysburg. I said that was the time that they were beaten. Vicksburg was an important Union victory around the same time, and then Gettysburg broke another part of the CSA. The CSA had a chance of holding out if it decided to change its plans sometime before June 1863, but was almost definitively stuffed afterwards.

I disagree. The South had a better chance of winning the war in 1864 than it did in 1863. There was no election in the Union in 1863, so Lincoln's isn't going anywhere.
 
I disagree. The South had a better chance of winning the war in 1864 than it did in 1863. There was no election in the Union in 1863, so Lincoln's isn't going anywhere.

OTOH the South is in even worse economic and demographic shape in 1864 than 1863. If all that happens is Sherman's March is delayed a few months and Little Mac is president is that he will be the President of the US when victory comes. He isn't going to give up if the US is likely to win in 1865. He comes in and fights it to victory and claims it is all his doing even if Sherman is in NC by the time he is president.

Still you are right, there is no chance the South wins in 1863 as Lincoln or Hamlin (If Lincoln dies early in the ATL) are not going to give up. The only chance the South has is to win a very squeaker victory in 1865. The only way I see that happening is Johnston retains command and is able to stop Sherman outside Atlanta fighting a tough siege. Grant may have to die as well. It is simply a war that is very, very tough for the South to win.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The only chance the South has is to win a very squeaker victory in 1865. The only way I see that happening is Johnston retains command and is able to stop Sherman outside Atlanta fighting a tough siege.

What a second. . . you acknowledge that the South had a chance to win?

...

WHO ARE YOU?!?! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JOHNRANKINS?!?!
 
I never said that the CSA would win Gettysburg. I said that was the time that they were beaten. Vicksburg was an important Union victory around the same time, and then Gettysburg broke another part of the CSA. The CSA had a chance of holding out if it decided to change its plans sometime before June 1863, but was almost definitively stuffed afterwards.

- BNC

If Lee hadn't done his OTL Gettysburg campaign, he wouldn't have gained the supplies captured from all those rich Pennsylvania farms. 47 miles of captured supply trains worth! Without that, and Northern Virginia itself reduced to a desert, the Army of Northern Virginia starves in the Winter of 1863-1864.

I disagree. The South had a better chance of winning the war in 1864 than it did in 1863. There was no election in the Union in 1863, so Lincoln's isn't going anywhere.

It all comes down to whether you believe that the American Civil War ends on Inauguration Day 1865 if Lincoln isn't president. McClellan was a White Supremacist, but he was also a War Democrat. He wasn't Clement Vallandigham.

OTOH the South is in even worse economic and demographic shape in 1864 than 1863. If all that happens is Sherman's March is delayed a few months and Little Mac is president is that he will be the President of the US when victory comes. He isn't going to give up if the US is likely to win in 1865. He comes in and fights it to victory and claims it is all his doing even if Sherman is in NC by the time he is president.

Still you are right, there is no chance the South wins in 1863 as Lincoln or Hamlin (If Lincoln dies early in the ATL) are not going to give up. The only chance the South has is to win a very squeaker victory in 1865. The only way I see that happening is Johnston retains command and is able to stop Sherman outside Atlanta fighting a tough siege. Grant may have to die as well. It is simply a war that is very, very tough for the South to win.

Another issue is that a President McClellan is going to have his eyes on being re-elected in 1868. He isn't going to throw over hundreds of thousands of Union combat deaths and expect to be thanked for it. McClellan was a fool but he wasn't stupid.
 
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