What was the best rifle of the 1870's?

Saphroneth

Banned
Like so many of the "Best" discussions we have, the answers go back to the purpose the particular item was used for.

For the 1870's, in addition to the big inter-country fights, there were a continuous stream of local wars, rebellions, raids, mutiny's, insurrections, what-not that in total may have burned through as much rifle ammunition as the big wars did

If you are only considering two professional armies standing across a field from each other, that's one discussion. If you are considering the many fights of that era involving a few hundred combatants, who may have arrived on-scene on horseback, canoe, via jungle trail, et al; the weapon of preference is probably different.

Which is one reason I think the M-H is only in the running if we allow the later cartridges. Locked to the wrapped-brass cartridges, it's a little too unreliable - and a jamming rifle isn't important in a skirmish line of thousands, but it can be quite important and perceptible in a company firing line fending off thousands of angry men with mangoes - er, I mean, spears.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Really depends on the need

Really depends on the need...

For a sharpshooter/sniper role, an accurized version of almost any of the breechloaders using metallic cartridges and with the appropriate sights/scopes ... even a Sharps.;)

As far as an infantry rifle goes, the Remington rolling block was an export success with European and Latin American militaries that engaged in pretty exhaustive and competitive testing and which presumably could order whatever the wished.

One other point of course is cost; one interesting reality is that with the pace of technological change and mobilization/demobilization in this era, there was a lot of equipment available at very low prices at the right place or time - especially in an era where arms trafficking was pretty much just business.

In the 1870s, Bannerman's in Manhattan could outfit a revolutionary army with everything from uniforms to artillery and small arms - Spencer repeaters, for example - for pennies on the dollar.

Best,
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Or you could go with the Evans .44...

Good enough for the Texas Rangers and the Canadian Mounties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-75_Winchester

magazine fed, perfect for cavalry and light infantry

only problem it isn't bayonet ready but then bayonets are for morale effect far more than actual combat

Besides having a rapid fire rifle with a pretty magazine has morale factor all its own

if you want to be a sniper, than this is kind of hard to beat

50-90 Sharps, which also has a legendary rifle shot associated with it (1,538 yards)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-90_Sharps

(for comparison, the modern record is 2,707 yards)


Or you could go with the Evans .44 ... 34 rounds capacity.

6cfa030f0a5579e78fcc6f71d296b9b1.jpg


Not the strongest of weapons, obviously, but 34 rounds without reloading has a quality all of its own...;)

Best,
 
Or you could go with the Evans .44 ... 34 rounds capacity.

6cfa030f0a5579e78fcc6f71d296b9b1.jpg


Not the strongest of weapons, obviously, but 34 rounds without reloading has a quality all of its own...;)

Best,

Unless your opponents have full size military rifles and are peppering you with effective fire from beyond the effective range of the .44? All the generally issued period military single shot breech loaders were up to the job with little to really choose between them.

BTW (and this usually generates a traditional taking of sides) the rolled brass Boxer case of the Martini Henry (and Comblain and others) extraction issue was not as bad as myth would have it and more of an issue of the storage and transport in hot climates and sea transport. These cases continued to be made for the open market into the 1930's. The drawn brass case was a later system available in the market and noticeably more expensive. Eley even introduced a tinned steel sheet version of the Boxer case to the commercial market after the 1870's.

The early Martini Henry extractor was strengthened and proved up to the job. The long lever mkIV was introduced in it's original Enfield Martini form as the .402 case was tapered throughout it's length and needed even stronger extraction. In 450/577 it was overkill.

Whilst there were a few used magazine rifles, mostly (but not only) in low powered rounds such as the .44, the sheer volume of smoke from powerful black powder rounds quickly obscures the target in military use. It was the French introduction of smokeless Poudre B that began the race to get small bore smokeless magazine rifles into service as you could actually still see the target right to the end of the magazine. Even then the Danes, Austrians and British had to bring their first versions out with solid black powder propellant until they could get production going. The USA suffered in their war with Spain from using black powder rifles whilst the Spanish were using smokeless and their soldiers were difficult to spot. But all of this moves us well out of our 1870s period.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
It was a response to GB's point on the Winchester repeater

It was a response to GB's point on the Winchester repeater for mounted troops; in terms of an actual "best choice" for infantry in the 1870s, the Remington rolling block seems to have been the contender most favored by countries looking for a weapon via competitive trials in that decade.

Best,
 
The Remington was indeed popular. Of course the purchasing decision only partly came from trials as price, availability, credit and credit history, existing stocks and outright corruption influenced many choices. Amongst the standard 1870s choices one chooses as much on sentiment as performance for a personal favourite. Somewhat like choosing a sports car. The Canadians kept Sniders as the standard until the 1890s.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Presume the Swedish and Norwegian purchases were

Presume the Swedish and Norwegian trials were competitive, and they appear to be the initial adopters. Remington RB, M1871, below:

Spanish%20M1870%20RB1.jpg


As far as the Canadian Snider goes, one would think cost and lack of any significant threat and lack of much emphasis on the militia period all leading to institutional inertia presumably explains a lot of that.... Similar reason as to why the M1873 Springfields lasted so long in the US.

Best,
 
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Apologies for my poor writing. I was referring to military rifle purchases generally, not for Remingtons in particular.
 
15604471_3.jpg
I forgot about the Winchester 1876. It was chambered in various hunting rounds including the .45-75, designed to be as powerful as the 45-70 but in a shorter case. It was good enough for the Canadian Mounties, Texas Rangers, Teddy Roosevelt, and Geronimo.
 
The 1876 is a really nice rifle but there must be a reason why no one adopted a Lever action repeater as its Infantry Rifle.
 
The 1876 is a really nice rifle but there must be a reason why no one adopted a Lever action repeater as its Infantry Rifle.

Mostly that they are hard to fire from a prone position, have issues with taking the shooters eye off the target, and that tubular magazines have problems with balance and Spitzer rounds.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The Ottomans used the M1866 Winchester quite effectively

The 1876 is a really nice rifle but there must be a reason why no one adopted a Lever action repeater as its Infantry Rifle.

The Ottomans used the M1866 Winchester quite effectively in the 1877 battles in the Balkans; on the defensive, with long-range fire with (US made) Peabody-Martinis and then short range fire from M1866s.
TurkWin01.jpg


The Russians ordered them as late as 1914-15 as substitute standards:
Screen-shot-2012-03-26-at-9.51.43-PM.png


Best,
 
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Mostly that they are hard to fire from a prone position, have issues with taking the shooters eye off the target, and that tubular magazines have problems with balance and Spitzer rounds.

I've fired a replica Winchester, and one odd problem that can occasionally happen is that if you hesitate halfway through the lever action, the bullet can drop down. It didn't happen a lot, but it did happen a couple of times. Not sure if this was something specific to the Winchester in general, or if it was just something screwy with this particular gun...
 
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