IOTL tanks seemed to develop mostly out of a need to break through the trenches of WWI, however from a tech stand-point how much earlier could they have actually emerged?
What was the absolute earliest that tanks could have emerged?
- Thread starter Mitchell Hundred
- Start date
a steam tank could of course could be much earlier, or a horse drawn one (as drawn by da vinci)
but a petrol & tracked tank, at best a decade. it all depends on engines and development of tracks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_tank
but a petrol & tracked tank, at best a decade. it all depends on engines and development of tracks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_tank
As soon as a viable engine, and a form of gun are developed. Gunpowder was known in China from the 5th century or so AD, and the Egyptians or something created a machine for rotation (the aelopile) in Roman times.
So 6th century maybe?
- BNC
So 6th century maybe?
- BNC
Oceano
Banned
Fuck horses or engines, just have a bunch of guys inside a big steel shell with wheels dragging it fowards and backwards, and small holes for guns and a small cannon on top, like a steel siege ram.
In a pinch, the guys inside the Steel Ram(!) can get some knives and swords and shank the bad guys
In a pinch, the guys inside the Steel Ram(!) can get some knives and swords and shank the bad guys
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Hussite war wagons, dated from around 1420 onwards which is probably about as close as you can get before the invention of a practical engine. On which note - armoured trains probably about 1850 or so, armoured cars by the 1890's and true tanks perhaps a decade before OTL.
Lucius Verus
Banned
The Hussite war wagons weren't tanks, just wagons used as mobile palisades to prevent cavalry from charging. Otherwise chariots would count as tanks too.
Redbeard
Banned
A train runs on iron rails, which drastically reduce friction. I doubt it would be possible to construct a steam engine strong enough to overcome the friction of tracks and terrain and still small enough to be housed in a tank hull small enough to be armoured effectively. It would anyway be hell to be inside a tank hull alongside a steam engine.
A combustion engine effective enough would I guess be plausible in the first years of 20th Century, but not much before.
People needed to feel the need before thinking of inventing the tank. It is because the military realized, during WW1, the devastating effect of modern machine-guns and artillery over infantry that they were able to conceive modern tank.
James Cowan came up with a concept in 1855 comprised of a cannon and scythes mounted on the side. It didn't go much further than a sketch due to it being seen as barbaric.
jahenders
Banned
I would tend to agree, but:
- You could potentially build a steam "tank" during the civil war. It would have to be pretty big , the armor probably wouldn't be too heavy (but big enough to be fairly safe from rifle fire, shrapnel, and small artillery), and it would be limited to fairly smooth terrain. It wouldn't really be practical, but it might be used on a road (as an armored train) of sorts, for storming across a bridge, or as a semi-mobile defensive point. As far as being miserable, the steam ironclads weren't too much different (steam engine in an enclosed space).
-- POD might be after the bloody Battle of Fredericksburg, the Union decides on a crash course to try to build one. It might make its debut in late 63 or early 64. After a few dubious attempts, it might not be further developed, but the examples might be used as road defenses
- A variant of Da Vinci's design could be built, made somewhat lighter and shorter. It, too, would be limited to smooth terrain, but could certainly be devastating at clearing a street/road.
- That horse drawn ideas are probably impractical since the thing would be 'dead' once the vulnerable horses are shot. The war wagon idea is close, but it's not really practical for offense.
No, you cannot. Until the 1880s, steam engines are too large and heavy to pull their own weight outside railroad tracks and the ocean. There's a reason steam tractors did not become a thing until the 1890s.
Glyndwr01
Banned
Found this in forums.
Fowler Armoured Road Train British Army Second Anglo-Boer War. 1900
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/fowler_b5_armtract.htm
Fowler Armoured Road Train British Army Second Anglo-Boer War. 1900
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/fowler_b5_armtract.htm
no, pre-ww1 there were several attempts already at designing a tank, the austro-hungarian burnstyn comes to mind
Until steam engines 'came of age' as 'prime movers', you're talking several millennia of human / ox-powered 'siege towers'. Perhaps the 'Trojan Horse' was such a beast ?? Counter-measures to those go back as far; pit-falls, buried amphorae etc etc...
Uh, honourable mention for ancient warships with their fighting tops, fore-castles etc.
IIRC, given the power/weight requirements, you could have *just* got 'Landships' into American Civil War. Didn't happen in OTL but, given a decade's 'Cold War' to delay that nasty business...
FWIW, the 'Fowler RoadTrain' piccy's site is currently disabled 'due billing issues'...
Uh, honourable mention for ancient warships with their fighting tops, fore-castles etc.
IIRC, given the power/weight requirements, you could have *just* got 'Landships' into American Civil War. Didn't happen in OTL but, given a decade's 'Cold War' to delay that nasty business...
FWIW, the 'Fowler RoadTrain' piccy's site is currently disabled 'due billing issues'...
This all depends on a definition what a tank is defined as. mobile protection and you are back to pre history. If you mean mechanicly powered ,bullet proof and machine guns 1860. Tank as appeared in WW1 , 1910. Tank with decent speed, range and not breaking down when you looked at it funny, 1920.