What the odds that a third strike on Pearl Harbor. . .

SsgtC

Banned
The US battle fleet wakes up gets attacked, gets pissed, storms out of Peril Harbor and runs the Japanese fleet down gets in range and blows them out of the water with the battleships that the Japanese chose not to attack
All good points except for this. Nagumo would have to be hitting the lead paint pretty hard to let a bunch of 21kt battleships run him down when he had a 10+ knot speed advantage over them. Plus better, longer ranged scouts. While it's fun to think about, the American battle line charging out of Pearl to extract vengeance against the Japanese, they'd never catch the KB.
 
Nagumo could have engaged either, or both, of the PacFleet's decks and would still have been worried about being pounced by a battle force nearly as large as his own (the IJN was also more than a little fuzzy on where the North Carolina and Washington might be, both ships were having considerable teething issues and were in and out of East Coast yards all through the second half of 1941).

A point that Nagumo was absolutely, painfully, aware of. Something he doesn't get enough credit for.

It wasn't his fault that this was such a huge gap in Japanese intelligence.

Of course, the Japanese had Takeo Yoshikawa at the Honolulu consulate giving Tokyo regular updates on what was at Pearl. Accurately, he had reported seeing only Enterprise and Lexington in the harbor in recent months; he even relayed the news of Lexington's departure on December 5. This alone should have reduced IJN expectations for catching a lot of decks in harbor well before the Kido Butai left home waters. But it also didn't mean that other carriers had not been recently dispatched to Hawaii, yet to arrive.

Much as he gets pilloried, I think Nagumo made the right call.
 

McPherson

Banned
This also brings up a fairly important point.

The Japanese, quite literally, hand no idea where the American carrier force was, actually did not know how many carriers were assigned to PacFleet (the original strike oders called for attacking fur battleships and four carriers in the first wave, and up to six carriers in the second wave. The USN, on December 7th, only had six fully operational carriers (Hornet was still working up post commissioning) so the Japanese were making plans to strike all six. The problem is that on December 7th there were only two American carriers within 2,000 mile of Pearl. Saratoga was just entering San Diego after being in Bremerton for a major refit that had started in January (she'd been in the yard for 10 months with a brief break in August to change slips, and the Japanese had no idea). Ranger, Yorktown and Wasp were all in the Atlantic (with the aforementioned Hornet)

Saratoga was having her aviation gas arrangements reworked, new radar being installed, and I believe her catapults were being upgraded.

Nagumo could have engaged either, or both, of the PacFleet's decks and would still have been worried about being pounced by a battle force nearly as large as his own (the IJN was also more than a little fuzzy on where the North Carolina and Washington might be, both ships were having considerable teething issues and were in and out of East Coast yards all through the second half of 1941).

For an intelligence workup, the Combined fleet had good intelligence about Hawaii, and even good intelligence about Singapore and the western Dutch Indonesia, but out of region, and those three specific locations, they were as navally blind as the allies.

Just based on the lack of actionable intel it was a good idea to beat feet.

I think Nagumo's orders had this very stipulation inserted into them, that as soon as he was confident, he had rendered the Pacific Fleet combat incapable, he was to proceed to Japan and or to other assigned objectives.
 
Is it possible to consider a couple other options for a 3rd strike target? One might be the 1st strike subject to hasty turn around so it can hit again in the afternoon, the target being the fleet again. Trying to pick off more of the lightly damaged ships.

A second might be a effort to run down any major US ships the were not in the harbor. This of course would be the US carriers OTL. It would also require hanging around at least a extra day. I know these two have been casually referred to a number of times, but perhaps they are worth picking over in depth?
 
Operation Sea Dragon...

"Operation Climb Mount Niitaka and again and again"

Not sure if it has been mentioned but a 3rd wave requires a night time recovery of those 3rd wave aircraft

But I have mixed feelings about the 3rd wave - there is a lot of aspects that negate carrying it out - Risk to the KB - futher losses to its aircraft - Fuel in its DDs etc

All very valid points

But Japan has just declared war against the USA by launching a suprise attack on its main Pacific fleet - I mean if thats not the time to go all in then I don't know when you would?

And the whole op was a risk to the KB they were there already why not hang around for a 3rd strike?

Japan had a large pool of trained Carrier Pilots - Grey cells tell me 4000 odd available - granted not all to the highest standard but they could replace any losses relatively quickly.

And as for DD Fuel - if that was really the case then they have planned it increadibly fine if they cannot risk staying on station for another 6 hours??

That all being said if I was to place myself in Nagumos shoes then I think I with teh same information would have made the same decision (especially given the IJNs attitude regarding placing the conservation of fleet assets over damage to the enemy) but I still have major doubts over the decision as I am sure he did.
 
After the KB moved out, the submarines took over hunting the carriers and the IJN lost I-70 in the process. I’m note sure on how well the subs could coordinate or communicate with the KB when it spotted targets. If Nagano had of stayed to find the carriers I think he’d be found first as he has a 360 degree search problem.
 
.... I’m note sure on how well the subs could coordinate or communicate with the KB when it spotted targets....

Wasn't that what IJN subs were mainly intended (and designed) for, to coordinate with the battle fleet (as opposed to operating as commerce raiders)?
 
After the KB moved out, the submarines took over hunting the carriers and the IJN lost I-70 in the process. ...

...& also nailed the Saratoga in January. The Sara was laid up three months for hull repairs. Check the stats, the IJN submarines did about as much damage to the US carrier fleet and the Japanese carriers, during 1942.

..I’m note sure on how well the subs could coordinate or communicate with the KB when it spotted targets. If Nagano had of stayed to find the carriers I think he’d be found first as he has a 360 degree search problem.

I don't think he needed to worry about searching to the north. The US had little attack capability in Alaska.
 
...& also nailed the Saratoga in January. The Sara was laid up three months for hull repairs.

Inaba must've been a good torpedo marksman, but I wonder why he fired just three torpedoes. If a carrier isn't worth a full spread of six what the heck was? Just one more hit could've been decisive.

Check the stats, the IJN submarines did about as much damage to the US carrier fleet and the Japanese carriers, during 1942.

As the Japanese carriers.
 

Geon

Donor
As for the idea to go after the Tanks and other base assets first. Let’s game that out (from Japan’s point of view so they have to look at what could happen as far as they know) They send in a wave or two and ignore the battle fleet. So what happens. The US battle fleet wakes up gets attacked, gets pissed, storms out of Peril Harbor and runs the Japanese fleet down gets in range and blows them out of the water with the battleships that the Japanese chose not to attack. Yes we know this NOW but Japan did not know it then.

Actually that might have been the best move on Nagumo's part. Namely, letting the Pacific Battle Fleet come to him. Several years ago as part of the 2 hour Unsolved History: Myths of Pearl Harbor episode, a very similar scenario was gamed by noted strategic game designer Larry Bond. The USN sorites the fleet to find and destroy the IJN strike force. The battle which follows is a disaster...for the Americans. The Japanese are able to sink most of the battleships. However, this time none of them are recoverable both the trained men and the ships they were on are sunk at sea. The Japanese victory is even greater because these ships will never be back.
 
And hanging around that long will see the IJN down every destroyer in the fleet. Would suck if Akagi ate a few torpedos on the way home.

IJN capital ships could refuel destroyers. Nagumo issued an order the day before the battle to do so if necessary. Here, from the log of the 1st Destroyer Squadron,

From CO of Task Force, 5 Dec, to Task Force, recieved 0815 5 Dec (signal). Task Force Signal Order No. 19

Paragraph 3: In case the rendezvous with the 1st Supply Group could not be made, it is planned that destroyers in guard missions be refueled from carriers and Abikuma and Tanikaze from the Third Battleship Division.
 
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There's an outside chance that an aerial search might turn up Enterprise, but...I assume we are talking about IJN submarines spotting them, and radioing the news to Nagumo.

Enterprise is roughly 300nm from Nagumo around 0700, heading east. To see the Enterprise Nagumo would have to scout to 300nm using a slice of his B5N2's, and this was not part of his plan.

The odds seem to be against getting both of them. Nagumo also only has so much fuel to work with to maneuver into attack range. And the longer he stuck around, and the closer he drew to Oahu, the more the chances of U.S. detection increased

The logical plan was to hit Oahu then go hunting for the carriers later that day.

But certainly Enterprise would be a more viable target for a third strike. Nagumo at least had the munitions to destroy *that*.

An IJN carrier might have something like 60 x 800kg bombs, 36 x torpedo, 360 x 550lbs bombs, plus some smaller bombs, in its magazines.
 
Not sure if it has been mentioned but a 3rd wave requires a night time recovery of those 3rd wave aircraft

Does it?

But I have mixed feelings about the 3rd wave - there is a lot of aspects that negate carrying it out - Risk to the KB - further losses to its aircraft - Fuel in its DDs etc

In the Apollo program the level of risk that was acceptable depended on the point of the mission at which the risk had to be taken. So, for the launch from the Cape, the level of acceptable risk was very low. But, in orbit, the level of risk acceptable was much higher. This is because in orbit a NASA mission had already overcome a great deal of risk associated with launch. With the Hawaii attack, a great deal of the risk was taken and overcome getting to, and sending in, the first wave. Nagumo after the recovery of the attack was in a position similar to Apollo in orbit.

And the whole op was a risk to the KB they were there already why not hang around for a 3rd strike?

Mainly because Nagumo had not done any scouting and had no idea about his tactical situation outside the results of the attack and the area his seaplanes had scouted, (which was close to the carriers and therefore not too instructive).

Japan had a large pool of trained Carrier Pilots - Grey cells tell me 4000 odd available - granted not all to the highest standard but they could replace any losses relatively quickly.

Carriers in the IJN actually were low-priority to land based air on replacements - this could have been altered for more Zeroes allocated to the carriers, and even a bit for the bombers carried. The carriers had about 250 x 2nd-line aircraft, meaning, older types of aircraft, that could have been employed for the Southern Drive if necessary. (ie, D1A1's, B5N1's, A5M4's). (If losing large numbers of aircraft at Hawaii, the IJN carriers would have to carry more Zeros because there were more of them, and more numbers of obsolescent, but still capable, carrier aircraft in 2nd-string units and tasking).

And as for DD Fuel - if that was really the case then they have planned it increadibly fine if they cannot risk staying on station for another 6 hours??

Nagumo's DD fuel state was about 60% on the 9th, after 48 hours of high speed running. He could have stayed and launched attacks on the 8th, but if staying for the 9th, he would have had to have refuelled his destroyers from his capital ships.

That all being said if I was to place myself in Nagumos shoes then I think I with teh same information would have made the same decision (especially given the IJNs attitude regarding placing the conservation of fleet assets over damage to the enemy) but I still have major doubts over the decision as I am sure he did.

Nagumo should have sent out more scouting aircraft in the morning once he received the information that the US carriers were not in port. Given the hasty nature of training and planning for the attack, the two-wave plan was fixed early. But I think it's probably also the case that if Nagumo had one do-over on Hawaii, he'd have done a double-strength wave like at Port Darwin and hit Oahu, maybe around 0830 with 352 aircraft at once.

Genda indicates that he wanted to withdraw and come back a few days later, like how it was done during the IO raid. Given the devastation of the PBY defenses and the repairs needed on aircraft on his carriers, and the lousy C3I caused by not doing proper recon that morning, this might have been the best option.
 
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Enterprise is roughly 300nm from Nagumo around 0700, heading east. To see the Enterprise Nagumo would have to scout to 300nm using a slice of his B5N2's, and this was not part of his plan.

Agreed. An air search requires some modification to Nagumo's orders.

An IJN submarine getting lucky and radioing in the Big E's location and bearing seems more likely here if we're pursuing this line of thought.

The logical plan was to hit Oahu then go hunting for the carriers later that day.

Which Nagumo was unwilling to do, not unreasonably - given his fuel limits, and the lack of knowledge of where American carriers might be. Would they find him before he found them? As Calbear has noted, the IJN had very little knowledge about where all of those seven carriers were.

There is no question that sinking even one American fleet carrier was of high value - maybe worth as much as most of the battle line. But I think it's hard to fault Nagumo for his decision. The problem with the operation was more fundamental to its conception - and that was not Nagumo's fault.
 
A third strike would need to involve airplanes. The first two strikes cost the japanese 29 planes shot down and 74 damaged out of a total of 414. Of those 74 airplanes, how many could be flown again the same day? The third strike would also be into the teeth of a ready defence.

Also, did not the japanese turn around and retreated back home as soon as the second wave lifted?

Halsey might have ordered a strike on his own with what he had if the Japanese stuck around.
 
Agreed. An air search requires some modification to Nagumo's orders.

An IJN submarine getting lucky and radioing in the Big E's location and bearing seems more likely here if we're pursuing this line of thought.
.

Would not the US task force intercept such a message and respond?
 

SsgtC

Banned
Would not the US task force intercept such a message and respond?
Maybe yes, maybe no. Even if they did intercept it, they hadn't broken the IJN codes yet, so they wouldn't be able to read it. Best case scenario, they triangulate it's position, realise Enterprise had been spotted and radio a warning to Halsey that he'd been located and to get his planes off the deck now.
 
Would not the US task force intercept such a message and respond?

They would probably detect it, but decoding it would be Rochefort's department. And Rochefort had not completely broken the IJN codes.

The sub might get sunk, but the important thing would be that Nagumo would have the information.

The other question would be whether the sub would try to take its own shot at the Big E.
 

nbcman

Donor
Would not the US task force intercept such a message and respond?

Maybe yes, maybe no. Even if they did intercept it, they hadn't broken the IJN codes yet, so they wouldn't be able to read it. Best case scenario, they triangulate it's position, realise Enterprise had been spotted and radio a warning to Halsey that he'd been located and to get his planes off the deck now.

They would probably detect it, but decoding it would be Rochefort's department. And Rochefort had not completely broken the IJN codes.

The sub might get sunk, but the important thing would be that Nagumo would have the information.

The other question would be whether the sub would try to take its own shot at the Big E.

Did the IJN have any subs to the Southwest of PH? OTL she was searching there.

Immediately after the attack, Enterprise was ordered to seek out and attack the Japanese fleet. Faulty intelligence and bad guesses led to her to search the waters southwest of Hawaii, where she found only more American ships. It is just as well, though, as it's unlikely Enterprise alone would have been an even match for the six Japanese fleet carriers now escaping west after the devastating morning raids
 
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