What should the United States, Britain, and France, have done differently regarding Germany, and Europe, at the End of World War One?

[prester.john208]

…wow, I was joking but you’re actually making exactly that argument. I just have no words.

Poland was always seen as a sacrificial goat by the West. The French never intended to attack the Seigfried line. They and the British planned to let the blockade and aerial bombardment win the war. No more Somme's or Verdun's.

FDR cared about Polish-American votes.
FDR and Churchill fought Stalin harder to get an occupation zone for France. Stalin didn't want to give up land for a zone, despite the fact that the French had air units fighting on the Eastern front, unlike the other Wallies.

From the Yalta Conference.
Yalta - Stalin and Churchill share a laugh after Stalin discusses Poland.

I often wonder how Stalin said this with a straight face.
Yalta
Poland was the first item on the Soviet agenda. Stalin stated, "For the Soviet government, the question of Poland was one of honor" and security because Poland had served as a historical corridor for forces attempting to invade Russia. Berthon & Potts 2007, p. 285
In addition, Stalin stated:

• "Because the Russians had greatly sinned against Poland", "the Soviet government was trying to atone for those sins".
• "Poland must be strong"
• "the Soviet Union is interested in the creation of a mighty, free and independent Poland".

Accordingly, Stalin stipulated that Polish government-in-exile demands were not negotiable, and the Soviets would keep the territory of eastern Poland that they had annexed in 1939, with Poland to be compensated for that by extending its western borders at the expense of Germany. Contradicting his prior stated position, Stalin promised free elections in Poland despite the existence of a Soviet sponsored provisional government that had recently been installed by him in the Polish territories occupied by the Red Army.

What FDR got from the man he addressed as Uncle Joe:
1) Stalin agreed to enter the fight against the Empire of Japan "in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated". As a result, the Soviets would take possession of Southern Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, the port of Dalian would be internationalized, and the Soviet lease of Port Arthur would be restored, among other concessions.
2) USSR to join UN in return for 3 votes.
In return Stalin got what he proposed for Poland.

 

[Avrorrange]

Would the Germans be less resentful if they were offered the option of retaining the territories it lost to Poland in exchange for doubling the reparations?

 

[kham_coc]

…wow, I was joking but you’re actually making exactly that argument. I just have no words.

The reality is that all of the things that Germany would go to war for, are things that the Entente doesn't mind them having.
The nazis might want war, but they can't make it happen out of nothing.

 

[prester.john208]

The reality is that all of the things that Germany would go to war for, are things that the Entente doesn't mind them having.
The nazis might want war, but they can't make it happen out of nothing.

The Locarno Pact of 1925 guaranteed Germany's western frontier, which the bordering states of France, Germany, and Belgium pledged to treat as inviolable. "The clear meaning of Locarno was that Germany renounced the use of force to change its western frontiers but agreed only to arbitration as regards its eastern frontiers, and that Great Britain promised to defend Belgium and France but not Poland and Czechoslovakia." Britainica "Pact of Locarno".
Poland, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania saw it as open season on their borders.

Lithuania gave up its port of Memel after German pressure.

Little known fact, the Czechs wanted to expel the Sudeten Germans prewar. On 15 September 1938, Beneš secretly offered to give 6,000 square kilometres (2,300 sq mi) of Czechoslovakia to Germany, in exchange for a German agreement to admit 1.5 to 2.0 million Sudeten Germans expelled by Czechoslovakia. Hitler did not reply.

The United Kingdom and France on 20 September formally asked Czechoslovakia to cede its Sudetenland territory to Germany, which was followed by Polish territorial demands brought on 21 September and Hungarian on 22 September. Meanwhile, German forces conquered parts of Cheb District and Jeseník District, where local battles included use of German artillery and Czechoslovak tanks and armored vehicles. Lightly armed German infantry briefly overran other border counties before being repelled. Poland also grouped its army units near its common border with Czechoslovakia and conducted an unsuccessful probing offensive on 23 September. Hungary moved its troops towards the border with Czechoslovakia, without attacking.

30 September, Czechoslovakia yielded to the combination of military pressure by Germany, Poland, and Hungary, and diplomatic pressure by the United Kingdom and France, and agreed to give up territory to Germany on Munich terms.

1 October, Czechoslovakia accepted Polish territorial demands.

Events following the Munich Agreement:
1. October 1938 The Sudetenland became part of Germany.
2. October 1938 Poland annexes Trans-Olza, an area with a Polish plurality, over which the two countries had fought a war in 1919.
3. November 1938 border areas (southern third of Slovakia and southern Carpathian Ruthenia) with Hungarian minorities became part of Hungary in accordance with the First Vienna Award.
4. 15 March 1939, Hungary annexes the remainder of Carpathian Ruthenia (which had been autonomous since October 1938).
5. 16 March 1939 Germany establishes the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.
6. 14 March 1939 the Slovak Republic declared.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Broadly speaking, Britain needs to get its head out of its ass and understand exactly how strong Germany is. OTL they miscalculated and became Wilson's lackey, preventing France from actually materially weakening Germany (the territories it lost were hardly the most important.)

A French saarland and bits of the Rhine wouldn't break the balance of power, and frankly, Wilson shouldn't have had any clout on the matter of borders. His goals were too utopian, especially considering he'd lost the midterms and wouldn't be able to count on congress ratifying the treaty

 

[Dorknought]

The Locarno Pact of 1925 guaranteed Germany's western frontier, which the bordering states of France, Germany, and Belgium pledged to treat as inviolable. "The clear meaning of Locarno was that Germany renounced the use of force to change its western frontiers but agreed only to arbitration as regards its eastern frontiers, and that Great Britain promised to defend Belgium and France but not Poland and Czechoslovakia." Britainica "Pact of Locarno".
Poland, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania saw it as open season on their borders.

But a disarmed Germany hardly has the capability to move any borders against Poland, Czechoslovakia or Lithuania so how is GB not defending them a problem?

 

[Sasza]

Would the Germans be less resentful if they were offered the option of retaining the territories it lost to Poland in exchange for doubling the reparations?

Yes

 

[prester.john208]

But a disarmed Germany hardly has the capability to move any borders against Poland, Czechoslovakia or Lithuania so how is GB not defending them a problem?

Austria, Poland and Hungary also wanted parts of Czechoslovakia and the Ruthenians and Slovakia wanted out.

Fallout from the Treaty of Trianon, the Polish-Czech war of 1919 (which saw war crimes by the Czechs) and the independent (1918 to 1920) Province of the Sudetenland getting forcibly included in Czechoslovakia.

Corpses of 20 Polish soldiers murdered by Czech legionnaires in Stonava on 26 January 1919.

 

[Dorknought]

Austria, Poland and Hungary also wanted parts of Czechoslovakia and the Ruthenians and Slovakia wanted out.

Fallout from the Treaty of Trianon, the Polish-Czech war of 1919 (which saw war crimes by the Czechs) and the independent (1918 to 1920) Province of the Sudetenland getting forcibly included in Czechoslovakia.

View attachment 871437
Corpses of 20 Polish soldiers murdered by Czech legionnaires in Stonava on 26 January 1919.

We are talking small bickies to what a disarmed Germany couldn't do and what a rearmed Germany did do.

 

[Post]

Would the Germans be less resentful if they were offered the option of retaining the territories it lost to Poland in exchange for doubling the reparations?

I think the question is "Would Hitler be less resentful...".
And if it is supposed to happen before Hitler gets into power: "does it prevent Hitler getting into power."
IMO the answer to both questions is no.

 

[Dorknought]

Would the Germans be less resentful if they were offered the option of retaining the territories it lost to Poland in exchange for doubling the reparations?

I guess if you say that you can't afford something then doubling it doesn't make it any more affordable.

 

[prester.john208]

Broadly speaking, Britain needs to get its head out of its ass and understand exactly how strong Germany is. OTL they miscalculated and became Wilson's lackey, preventing France from actually materially weakening Germany (the territories it lost were hardly the most important.)

A French saarland and bits of the Rhine wouldn't break the balance of power, and frankly, Wilson shouldn't have had any clout on the matter of borders. His goals were too utopian, especially considering he'd lost the midterms and wouldn't be able to count on congress ratifying the treaty

France's problems in 1870, WW 1 and 2 were not the German army or economy but military incompetence at the top. France had equal or better weapons, numbers, terrain, fortifications, access to world wide resources, food and fertilizer imports, interior lines, colonial soldiers and strong allies, the British Empire.

 

[pjmidd]

If they gave rail and auto transit corridors and a plebiscite for Danzig in return for Development of Gdansk. Poland avoids debugging the Blitzkrieg and the USSR invasion. This also saves Finland, the Baltic States and Romania from Stalin's grasp.

For real? Totally forgetting what happened when Czechoslovakia gave up the Sudetenland for peace? Would have worked out about as well.

 

[mtpalmer1]

wow, I was joking but you’re actually making exactly that argument. I just have no words.

For real?

I'm going to back out of this thread slowly and bolt the door....good luck.

 

[The Link]

@prester.john208
Look, it is absolutely true that the western powers didn't give a damn about the fate of Poland and sacrificed her. It's also true that in 1930s France was mentally completely different than in Versailles: the French became lazy and assuming that they don't have to fight Germany and that the things will somehow resolve themselves (for France at least) without France having to commit some personal effort. Thus, it is absolutely true that it was unrealistic to assume that the western powers will do anything to aid Poland in 1939.

It's also true that the outcome of ww2 f*cked up the Poles pretty badly. Soviet extermination of polish intelligentsia (not just Katyń but the communist hunts after the war), Augustów Roundup, Trial of the Sixteen, deportations of all heavy industry to USSR, pillages, rapes and decades of indoctrination about a necessity to bow down to the soviet masters and their polish-speaking enforcers. All while being denied to participate in the Victory Parade in London, and being trashed in the western education as "active supporters of holocaust". With all of it in mindset, a lot of Poles genuinely wonder today whether we (Poles) should have marched with Hitler on the Soviets back in 1939.

But you know who also f*cked up the Poles? The Germans, through regular capturing us at random in "łapanki" to then send us to slave labors or executions, ultimately resulting in the extermination of 17% of our population.

So while Hitler maybe, MAYBE could have spared us if we had joined the anti-comintern pact (one of Hitler's demands), once we denied, he butchered us. Physically, not just by a mere annexation. And that we will not forget. As for the potential entrance of Poland into the anti-comintern pact, Hitler dreamed about Lebensraum for Germany in the east. Even if he decided to spare Poland, all of the east would be german and Poland would be completely surrounded by Germany. With such encirclement, Poland would have nothing to say.

 

[eretzyegern]

I have an idea, maybe very naive, but one thing that might help is Wilson dying of a stroke before negotiations start.

 

[DracoLazarus]

Describing France as lazy is inaccurate and insulting.
Traumatised by WWI ? Yes. Unwilling to enforce Versailles alone ? Well, considering how it went in 1924 after the Germans self-sabotaged by deliberately adopting the dumbest possible approach to paying reparations, not wanting to enforce it without English support at least is called learning from one's mistakes.
France made a number of mistakes while rearming, of which Maginot was not one. But the fact is that it wasn't ready to fight an offensive war against Germany at the earliest and its generals knew it. Nor was England to be fair, but England has a bit of a moat in the way, otherwise it'd be called Angleterre.
In the end, what we are working with here is only the peace conference. Any impact we can seek to achieve will have to contend with the same imponderables of national self-interest afterwards...

 

[prester.john208]

For real? Totally forgetting what happened when Czechoslovakia gave up the Sudetenland for peace? Would have worked out about as well.

Poland has given up nothing other than RR access on one line and use of a highway between East and West Prussia. The corridor was indefensible to start with. Now you have no Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and no pretext for war. Poland keeps its strategic depth, in return for a possibility of joining an Eastern campaign after Germany attacks/wins in the West, minus the fuel and resources from the MR pact. More likely the Western campaign bogs down in Belgium/Holland as major issues with organization, training, doctrine and weapons come to light along with fuel, weapon and ammunition shortages. There's likely no Sickle Cut attack either, but the revised WW 1 plan of Halder and Co.

 

[pjmidd]

Poland has given up nothing other than RR access on one line and use of a highway between East and West Prussia. The corridor was indefensible to start with. Now you have no Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and no pretext for war. Poland get strategic depth and a possibility of joining an Eastern campaign after Germany attacks/wins in the West, minus the fuel and resources from the MR pact. More likely the Western campaign bogs down as issues with organization, training, doctrine and weapons come to light along with fuel shortages.

Missing the point , with Czechoslovakia as soon as they gave in , Hitler just wanted more. There is an old adage , paying Danegeld just means more Danes, in other words , all Poland gets is a little more time. Hitler was pretty clear in his ideology, he would want all of pre WW1 Germany back, then the former Austrian bits, then the bits he claims are really German etc till Poland fights or submits to being part of the Reich.

 

[wcv215]

But you know who also f*cked up the Poles? The Germans, through regular capturing us at random in "łapanki" to then send us to slave labors or executions, ultimately resulting in the extermination of 17% of our population.

Clearly they should have just rolled over amd talen it. Really it was their own fault. Look at what they made the Germans do. 🙄