While I like learning things about history, and am trying to get folks to take a good, long, honest look that how really bad ToV was (and really, not just ToV but all the other things that were done to Germany post WWI), so that we can all see just how wrong headed things were, so we can come up with a better peace treaty, and thus a better peace post war.
I may be wrong, but I thought that was the point of this thread, to look at different ways the peace could have been forged. That being said, I would ask why you are painting the ToV as being a lesser evil than some other treaty from like ~100 years before the time period in question?
Don't get me wrong, this stuff is indeed interesting (and yet another thing about which I know nothing), but could I ask your opinion about a comparison of two contemporary treaties instead, namely the ToV compared to B/L? These two treaties were very close together in the timeline, and both came out of WWI and it's aftermath.
For that matter, can anyone tell me (with links) all the different things done against Germany post WWI, that may not have been part of the ToV, but which were part of the whole package nonetheless?.
For me, everything that was done to Germany needs to be lumped into the ToV, so we can all see the total mess of things made by (Primarily) France, but also by Britain as well. Some things I want folks to consider:
1) The Germans were not allowed a seat at the table while the terms were being negotiated, rather, they were simply informed that they had to 'take it or leave it', and the war and blockade would continue until they did. This alone should get folks to understand that the ToV was never designed nor intended to create a "Just and lasting Peace", but rather to impose harsh terms on, and to weaken Germany. This will of course lead to a new war, it can do naught else.
2) The blockade of foodstuffs to Germany was never allowed to be brought up, despite the many things wrong with it, like interfering with neutral rights, and that it constituted a crime against humanity that historically has never been acknowledged nor compensated for (or punished/condemned) properly as such.
3) The use of non-combatants to fire upon, attempt to ram, or broadcasting the location of German submarines attempting to stop and inspect Entente shipping constituted turning them into de facto naval auxiliaries (and thereby combatants), and thus exempt from the protections of non-combatant vessels with regard to sinking without warning.
4) The loss of the German Empire's colonies. The complete loss of all colonies, and the hugh slap in the face that this is, cannot be overemphasized. This alone is a huge humiliation and loss of prestige, power, and international standing, and a very bitter pill for the German people to have to swallow, let alone have it being imposed without any negotiations at all.
5) The ridiculous 100,000 man army size. Germany fielded what, 11,000,000 men in the course of WWI, compared to Frances 7,500,000 men and the British 6,000,000 men? This is also a worthless part of the imposed terms, and meant to shame Germany, and keep her to weak to fight back against any future nonsense. This has no place even being discussed in a treaty that is supposed to make a "Just and lasting Peace", and this can only antagonize the whole of the German population.
6) The chopping down of the German navy to ships with no more than 10,000 tons displacement, nor guns larger than 11", let alone the numbers and makeup overall. Anything of this kind should have been done at the WNC, and been mutually agreed upon by all parties. The fact that this was instead imposed as a condition for the farcical 'peace' treaty and lifting of the blockade is just further proof of the wrongheadedness of the Entente powers at the time.
7) Stealing all the German patents! I guess this is not widely known/thought of, but after WWI, the Entente basically helped themselves to all the proprietary technologies that the German nation held pre-war. Outright theft, and limiting the profits to the German economy when that economy is the one that is supposed to foot the bill for rebuilding war ravaged areas, and the Reparations themselves, this is madness.
8) Forbidding the Germans, post war, from selling their manufactured goods in Britain and France, also weakens the German economy, and likewise that economies ability to pay.
9) No German submarines! In perpetuity, and without any recognition of the causes for USW being the fault of the British, let along anything being put in place to prevent such a crime against humanity such as blockading foodstuffs, from ever being attempted again (obviously, the submarines were the only option for Germany to try to return the favor to the British people), and thus should have been not only allowed, but required to be recognized as "fair play" in a world where starving a nation's people is overlooked and swept under the rug, No international guarantee that foodstuffs will never again be interfered with, like every nation on Earth immediately declares war on such a nation that ever tries this strategy kind of guarantee, no restrictions on any nation targeted by such can be allowed, and they have every right to sink such a blockading nations merchantmen without notice.
10) No German airforce! In perpetuity, and without any reciprocal restrictions on other nations. Not conductive to a "Just and Lasting Peace", and yet another example of how not to make a peace that you want to last, and yet another reason for another war.
Before I take a nap, I would like to ask folks, say that we can all agree that cutting the Germans navy down was both wrong and stupid, what would their ratio have looked like at the WNC/WNT? Historically, we had the 5 : 5 : 3 : 1.75 : 1.75 ratios, but where would/should the Germans have been fitted in? 5:5:3:3? but the Germans were ahead of the Japanese industrially, so perhaps 5:5:4:3 would have been a better ratio? think about this, and let me know what you think.
I'm already feeling tired, so even though I haven't gotten to the really rotten stuff that underlies all of this, I need a nap before going there, let alone trying to discuss ways to fix all these things.
