What should the allies have done at Versailles (and in otehr 1919 treaties)

[Derek Jackson]

In olt it is widely believed that the Versailles treaty gave the Nazis a major issue.

Furthermore guilt about that treaty probably slowed down the process of resisting Hitler.

However what other options were there:

1) Could the Democratic German government have been involved in the negotiaations?

2) Could Germany have been allowed to keep more territory?

3) Could there have been a seriously enforced arms limitation which did not just apply to Germany.

4) Could a more extreme treaty have been enforced?

any other options??

 

[wkwillis]

Nothing. Go home. Don't bother with reparations, because what are the French, British, etc, going to do about it? Fight the Germans without US money and troops?
Just don't give the Germans foreign aid disguised as loans, like we did in OTL.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Territory: I doubt Germany could have hold on to more, heck the French wanted to be even harsher. One could argue that Anschluss should have been permitted, but I see how France and Italy considered that a threat.

Compensation: Well, no compensation was never going to happen, but yeah, should have been a sum Germany realistically could have paid back.

Arms limitation: No, restricting arms for the victors of a war is ASB. Would only be applied to the losers.

More extreme treaty: Well, it's possible, France certainly wanted a even more restrictive treaty. But Britain and the US were more moderate, and worried about Bolsheviks taking over in Germany.

 

[History lover]

They should not have breaked up Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman empire in the first place.Also they should have gave germany to keep it's GERMAN POPULATED territories which were taken from her and were given to the Czechoslovakia,Poland and France.They should however demand compensations.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

They should not have breaked up Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman empire in the first place.Also they should have gave germany to keep it's GERMAN POPULATED territories which were taken from her and were given to the Czechoslovakia,Poland and France.They should however demand compensations.

Ok, here's some stupidity:
1. Austria- Hungary had pretty much collapsed already at Versailles.
2. Germany lost no territory to Czecholsovakia, the Sudetenlands had been parts of Austrian Bohemia.
3. Territories lost to Poland and France had mostly a substantial French and Polish population, sure there were a lot of Germans too, and in some instances a majority, but it was not as they gave some "pure" German lands away, also the border in Silesia was decided through a plebiscite, and Germany got to keep some parts (both sides cheated though).

 

[History lover]

Ok, here's some stupidity:
1. Austria- Hungary had pretty much collapsed already at Versailles.
2. Germany lost no territory to Czecholsovakia, the Sudetenlands had been parts of Austrian Bohemia.
3. Territories lost to Poland and France had mostly a substantial French and Polish population, sure there were a lot of Germans too, and in some instances a majority, but it was not as they gave some &quoture" German lands away, also the border in Silesia was decided through a plebiscite, and Germany got to keep some parts (both sides cheated though).

1) Austria-Hungary was still in shape during early WW1.It was broken into several states in order to prevent threats to Serbia and Italy.Furthermore,they also artificially divided the two (actually thrre but Bosnia was wholly enetered into Yoguslavia) constituents of Austria Hungary into states in the Trianon Treaty.Also the Sevres treaty which artificially gave turkish areas to other nations.2)Germany lost german populated territory to Czechoslovakia.3)Alsace-Lorain and the former german areas of polan were inhabited with mainly germans.Also Danzig which recived independence as a League controlled territory was mainly german at the time.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

1) Austria-Hungary was still in shape during early WW1.It was broken into several states in order to prevent threats to Serbia and Italy.Furthermore,they also artificially divided the two (actually thrre but Bosnia was wholly enetered into Yoguslavia) constituents of Austria Hungary into states in the Trianon Treaty.Also the Sevres treaty which artificially gave turkish areas to other nations.2)Germany lost german populated territory to Czechoslovakia.3)Alsace-Lorain and the former german areas of polan were inhabited with mainly germans.Also Danzig which recived independence as a League controlled territory was mainly german at the time.

1. At the time of Versailles, the Habsburg monarchy had really no control anymore.
2. Ataturk pretty much overturned Sevres, while he channeled the powers of Turkish Superman. Also, Turkey came out a s a nation state and a Republic, and I guess you can argue whether it was better than the Ottoman monarchy or not.
3. Sudetenland was Austrian, they lost a small part of Silesia to Czechoslovakia (Hluczyn). Actually an interesting case since it had a Czech. majority, but still rather would have stayed with the Weimar republic than transfered to the new Czech. state. (ergo, not so German, Czrch. majority, still interesting).
4. Poland: Some territories had German majority, especially in West Prussia (I actually ignored Danzig, since it became a League city), but there was a sizable Polish minority. I don't say giving Poland thosle lands were right, but they were not really pure German land, there lived many Poles there (and many people who spoke both languages, and considered themselves German until the end of WW1, when they pretty much just switched allegiance). Also: Poznan had a Polish majority.
5. German majority in Alsace- Lorraine= true, but there still lived many French, and France would never sign a peace treaty where they won't get Alsace- Lorraine back. If you want to discuss unjustified land transfer after WW1, I'd say Eupen- Malmedy and North Schleswig were less justified (Denmark wasn't even in the war).

 

[History lover]

1. At the time of Versailles, the Habsburg monarchy had really no control anymore.
2. Ataturk pretty much overturned Sevres, while he channeled the powers of Turkish Superman. Also, Turkey came out a s a nation state and a Republic, and I guess you can argue whether it was better than the Ottoman monarchy or not.
3. Sudetenland was Austrian, they lost a small part of Silesia to Czechoslovakia (Hluczyn). Actually an interesting case since it had a Czech. majority, but still rather would have stayed with the Weimar republic than transfered to the new Czech. state. (ergo, not so German, Czrch. majority, still interesting).
4. Poland: Some territories had German majority, especially in West Prussia (I actually ignored Danzig, since it became a League city), but there was a sizable Polish minority. I don't say giving Poland thosle lands were right, but they were not really pure German land, there lived many Poles there (and many people who spoke both languages, and considered themselves German until the end of WW1, when they pretty much just switched allegiance). Also: Poznan had a Polish majority.
5. German majority in Alsace- Lorraine= true, but there still lived many French, and France would never sign a peace treaty where they won't get Alsace- Lorraine back. If you want to discuss unjustified land transfer after WW1, I'd say Eupen- Malmedy and North Schleswig were less justified (Denmark wasn't even in the war).

1) So? I don't say i oppose the breakup of Austria-Hunagry but rather the breakup of both Asutria and Hungary,especially Hungary in Trianon.2)Yes,but fact is,people still remeber sevres this days in turkey.It actually gave them a basis for more territorial claims.3)Sudeteland had german magority.They should have been tranferred into Germany in the first place.4)Poland.That territories have a German magority.Poland also contained many Jews (Including my grandmother) and Belarrusians.Nobody thought to break up parts of poland in order to gove them to the Soviet Union/Zion.5)Alsace-Lorain have a german magority and their culture is more german than french.Also the french weren't exactly the playground's geniuses when it came to the aftermath of WW1.6) I agree about Denmark.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Well, Poland waged several wars post independent and expanded eastwards, thus many Lithuanians, Jews (well there were several Jews before too), Belorussians and Ukrainians. Yes, Poland's policy towards minorities were much worse than Weimar's. Won't argue there.

Trianon is tricky, but unavoidable. Romania wanted compensation, and thus got terriories with a Romanian population (nevermind that they got huge Hungarian, German and Serb minorities), same for Serbia in the Banat. Croatia didn't wanted to stay with Hungary, had nothing against a Pan- Slavic experiment, but came to despise the Serb dominance. The Slovak national consciousness didn't properly awake before the mid- late 20s, but some Slovak intellectuals wanted union with the Czechs, and some Czech. nationalists wanted the Slovaks in the Czech. state. Far from a perfect solution, but there just was no much love for Hungary (even less after the Bela Kun spectacle). And to be honest, the territory Hungary lost had mostly a non- Hungarian majority. Economically losing 2/3 of their territory was of course disastrous for Hungary.

France might not be geniuses, but there was just no way for a Peace deal after WW1, with an Entente victory that wouldn't include giving Alsace- Lorraine to France. More likely for Germany to keep more land east, than keeping Alsace- Lorraine.

In my opinion Anschluss should have been permitted post WW1, but I can see why France and Italy were so much against it.

 

[euromellows]

The Treaty of Versailles was not that harsh on Germany. Sure it added fuel to the fire for Hitler, but the most likely sticking point for Germany was the fact that it was more populous, more industrious, richer and potentially a lot more powerful then Britain and France yet it was they who controlled a gigantic empire. They deliberately kept Germany from having a place in the sun because they knew she would eclipse them both so to speak.

The Treaty of Versailles was not as ground-breaking as the Franco-Prussian War. It was not as harsh as the Germans were in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (if you want damn harsh there's not many better examples). And it very likely was not as harsh as the German intended to be had they of occupied Paris and won.

 

[miketr]

The problem is the Germans came to close to winning. They needed to either get beaten much, much worse and in such a way to make clear that they lost. For example demanding that Berlin be occupied a victory parade for the allies be done would be a good start. The problem for the allies is the simple fact of the matter that Germany no matter what is larger and more economically powerful than France. It isn't natural for them to stay down relative to France.

You want to avoid WW2 as we know it then you need to get the French leadership to accept this fact and get their electorate to accept it and move forward from there. Not going to happen.

Sooner or later Germany was going to slip free of the restrictions and there would be some desire to reclaim lost lands. When that happens war would be very possible. Best bet is to try to bind Germany into an international system instead of making them outsiders looking in but again I have my doubts.


One last thing to keep in mind is that in 1939 the German people were not in favor of war but there was a dictator so peoples opinions didn't matter. After France went down the Germans thought they were on cloud nine of course.

 

[Wendell]

Make it more like the Congress of Vienna; allow the defeated to partake in the negotiations, let the Germans keep more land, but surround them with powerful neighbors for balance.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Make it more like the Congress of Vienna; allow the defeated to partake in the negotiations, let the Germans keep more land, but surround them with powerful neighbors for balance.

How do you do that?

 

[Wendell]

How do you do that?

Which?

For starters, avoid forcing referenda in areas to vote on whether or not to join nonbelligerent states. The German loss of northern Schleswig following the First World War was borderline ASB, regardless of the ethnicity of its inhabitants.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Which?

For starters, avoid forcing referenda in areas to vote on whether or not to join nonbelligerent states. The German loss of northern Schleswig following the First World War was borderline ASB, regardless of the ethnicity of its inhabitants.

Agree, about North Schleswig, Denmark wasn't even in the war. Also, in plebiscites on the Polsih- German border, both Poland and Germany cheated by transporting extra voters to the areas in question. Then on the other hand, would it have been more right to award those territories to Poland outright? I don't think so.

 

[Wendell]

Agree, about North Schleswig, Denmark wasn't even in the war. Also, in plebiscites on the Polsih- German border, both Poland and Germany cheated by transporting extra voters to the areas in question. Then on the other hand, would it have been more right to award those territories to Poland outright? I don't think so.

I would have ceded Posen to Poland, and united the new state with Lithuania. Germany still loses its colonies and Alsace-Lorraine, but not the Saar or Ruhr.

Italy gets Trieste and the Italophone districts of Tyrol. Austria retains the rest of what was before the war Cisleithania sans the Czech lands and Galicia. Hungary retains Slovakia and Transylvania.

Croatia, Bosnia, and Banat unite as Croatia, a monarchy under some Italian noble.

Romania gains Bukovina and Bessarabia.

Belgium gets Luxembourg, and Serbia gets Montenegro.

Thus, with the exception of Czechia, Germany is surrounded by somewhat larger and more powerful states.

 

[Big Brother]

In my opinion the Allies should have been harsher on Germany and significantly nicer to Austria Hungary.

What they should have done to Germany (In my opinion)

1)Reinstate the Royal family as constitutional Monarchs under the pretext that it was Hindenburg and Ludendorff that led to the wartime food shortages and eventual defeat by their high risk strategies such as unrestricted submarine warfare and and the Luddendorff offensive. The advantage of this is that with the military as scapegoats, for the immediate post war suffering, militarism would be much diminished.

2)Take reparations in form of industry and not money effectively weakening the state and not the Germans themselves (to the same extent as IRL) which could result in:
-less post war inflation,
-no mass Pan-German poverty
-Less of a united national sentiment of revanchism against the Western Allies
which lead to the rise in support for extremism.

3) Take more of Germany (East Prussia) and give it to Poland strengthening their future allies whilst simultaneously weakening Germany and denying Germany the lure of the Polish Corridor to the sea.

4)Promoting regionalism in education as opposed to Nationalism by emphasising the teaching pre1870 history.

5)Given the Weimar republic more support in times of need but also instate leaders who would be sure to actually pay the reparations on time.


By being kinder to Austria-Hungary they would not have prevented the decomposition from happening as the Empire was falling apart anyway.Additionally the resentment felt by the Germans at their allies for having been let so lightly off after WW1 might prevent any future rapprochement or Anschluss in the short term.

Any thoughts?

 

[Magnificate]

I would have ceded Posen to Poland, and united the new state with Lithuania.

Poles might accept Lithuania, but Lithuanians would certainly oppose incorporation into the Polish state.

3) Take more of Germany (East Prussia) and give it to Poland strengthening their future allies whilst simultaneously weakening Germany and denying Germany the lure of the Polish Corridor to the sea.

That might have the exact oppossite effect, that is it could promote German revisionism.

Any successful 'Versailles' must devise some mechanism to either keep Germany in long-term check or make them accept their losses. Seems pretty much impossible.

 

[Wendell]

In my opinion the Allies should have been harsher on Germany and significantly nicer to Austria Hungary.

What they should have done to Germany (In my opinion)

1)Reinstate the Royal family as constitutional Monarchs under the pretext that it was Hindenburg and Ludendorff that led to the wartime food shortages and eventual defeat by their high risk strategies such as unrestricted submarine warfare and and the Luddendorff offensive. The advantage of this is that with the military as scapegoats, for the immediate post war suffering, militarism would be much diminished.

2)Take reparations in form of industry and not money effectively weakening the state and not the Germans themselves (to the same extent as IRL) which could result in:
-less post war inflation,
-no mass Pan-German poverty
-Less of a united national sentiment of revanchism against the Western Allies
which lead to the rise in support for extremism.

3) Take more of Germany (East Prussia) and give it to Poland strengthening their future allies whilst simultaneously weakening Germany and denying Germany the lure of the Polish Corridor to the sea.

4)Promoting regionalism in education as opposed to Nationalism by emphasising the teaching pre1870 history.

5)Given the Weimar republic more support in times of need but also instate leaders who would be sure to actually pay the reparations on time.


By being kinder to Austria-Hungary they would not have prevented the decomposition from happening as the Empire was falling apart anyway.Additionally the resentment felt by the Germans at their allies for having been let so lightly off after WW1 might prevent any future rapprochement or Anschluss in the short term.

Any thoughts?

Keeping the Austro-Hungarian state would only result in a travesty worse than Yugoslavia in OTL with a POD at the peace talks.

 

[Wendell]

Poles might accept Lithuania, but Lithuanians would certainly oppose incorporation into the Polish state.

It's a federal state. Put the capital in Vilnius and protect the language rights of both parts.