What part of Italy could have remained un-united?

[Strategos' Risk]

Besides the Vatican, of course.

Which part of modern-day Italy had the most distinct culture/language, or other identity, as well as the leverage (in terms of its own power or adjacency to powerful allies), or geographical distance, to have resisted unification?

 

[cmakk1012]

Venice, had it not been conquered by Napoleon.

It has its own very distinct language, lengthy and illustrious history, and an ardent sense of local nationalism.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Besides the Vatican, of course...

I think San Marino may geographically be located on the Italian peninsula but an independent state in its own right in 2019, too.

Edit:
San Marino might be a useful case study for looking at how independence might be maintained.

 

[ramones1986]

Alongside Venice, Sardinia would be the other candidate.

 

[Atterdag]

The two Sicilies perhaps? IIRC Victor Emmanulle's idea of Italy was just the north and it was Garibaldi that made the south join, remove him and they may survive.

 

[Philip]

The two Sicilies perhaps?

Agreed. It should be fairly easy to preserve the north-south divide.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

The two Sicilies perhaps? IIRC Victor Emmanulle's idea of Italy was just the north and it was Garibaldi that made the south join, remove him and they may survive.

Venice, had it not been conquered by Napoleon.

It has its own very distinct language, lengthy and illustrious history, and an ardent sense of local nationalism.

Naples is far more likely to make it through than Venice, assuming a similar pattern of unification lead by the Savoyards and backed tactly by compromise Nationalists. In order for Italy to be secure in Lombardy and Centeral Italy, they'd need to push the Austrians out of Veneto to remove the constant threat from the Habsburgs, and if it's not going to be in Vienna's hands Union with Italy is the next most likely choice. Venice is much easier to link to North Italy economically, politically, and culturally as well. You think Venice's dialect and identity and distinct? It dosen't hold a candle to the gap between Sicilian and Napalese and Florentine "Italian", and the elite in the South were much less similar to the Piedmontese co-upperclassmen than the Venetian intellectuals.

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

Elba as an independent microstate ruled by the Bonapartes and protected by France (better to keep the Bonapartes busy ruling a tiny country then give them free time to try and take over France again)

 

[cmakk1012]

Naples is far more likely to make it through than Venice, assuming a similar pattern of unification lead by the Savoyards and backed tactly by compromise Nationalists. In order for Italy to be secure in Lombardy and Centeral Italy, they'd need to push the Austrians out of Veneto to remove the constant threat from the Habsburgs, and if it's not going to be in Vienna's hands Union with Italy is the next most likely choice. Venice is much easier to link to North Italy economically, politically, and culturally as well. You think Venice's dialect and identity and distinct? It dosen't hold a candle to the gap between Sicilian and Napalese and Florentine "Italian", and the elite in the South were much less similar to the Piedmontese co-upperclassmen than the Venetian intellectuals.

No, by the 19th century I agree that Venice wasn’t viable as an independent state.

With an 18th century or earlier PoD, though, I’d dispute that Venice couldn’t have had an easier time going it alone than Naples. Venice was proportionally far wealthier than Naples and had a republican tradition that would have put it at odds with monarchist nationalism. As for language, that’s fair, but I’d definitely class both Venetian and Sicilian as distinct languages and not use the Italian definition of dialects.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

No, by the 19th century I agree that Venice wasn’t viable as an independent state.

With an 18th century or earlier PoD, though, I’d dispute that Venice couldn’t have had an easier time going it alone than Naples. Venice was proportionally far wealthier than Naples and had a republican tradition that would have put it at odds with monarchist nationalism. As for language, that’s fair, but I’d definitely class both Venetian and Sicilian as distinct languages and not use the Italian definition of dialects.

I'd be inclined to agree with you, if not for the fact that a pre-Napoleonic POD (A pre-Congress of Vienna POD, even), so drastically changes the situation for Nationalist sentiments both in Italy and Europe as a whole that the nature of Italian Unification is bound to be next to unrecognizable. Thus we can't really fairly analyze the situation... we might not even have any strong Panitalian movement, much less a Piedmont-Lead Royalist anti-clerical one

 

[Arcavia]

Does Sudtirol count as part of Italy? It wouldn't be difficult to see the territory reverting to Austria at some point...

 

[fraa Jad]

At what point? 13th century? 15th century? 19th century?

 

[Scaevola]

At what point? 13th century? 15th century? 19th century?

With a bit of luck Magna Graecia, or at least the transpadane Boii, could have maintained sovereignty.

 

[Arcavia]

With a bit of luck Magna Graecia, or at least the transpadane Boii, could have maintained sovereignty.

Heck, if you're going with an ancient POD, it wouldn't be hard to see the idea of "Italy" never really emerging. If, say, Rome lost the Latin War, you would likely see very distinct identities with a Hellenized south, Latin/Umbrian peoples in central Italy, a reasonably strong Etruscan polity, and Celts north of the Po.

 

[Falecius]

It really depends. While I think that Italian unification in the modern era is likely, I do not think that it is overdetermined, and there's a lot of flukes in the way it actually happened. Sicily and the Northeast, as noted, are the bits more likely to go on different paths, but it really depends on how unification happens and what areas and social groups lead it. If the House of Savoy is involved, Sardinia is going to be part of Italy with a POD after the early 18th century, even if it is culturally and linguistically distinct from continental Italy. Trentino could have easily have stayed Austrian, likewise Trieste and the rest of Venezia Giulia (perhaps for the better, regarding the people involved) could have easily gone on a different path.
Valtellina could have easily remained Swiss with a Napoleonic era POD, Aosta Valley (and maybe also Susa and other Alpine areas of Piedmont) might become French under conceivable circumstances at verious times.
Of course, PODs where the Kingdom of Naples survives are very possible.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

My original impetus for this thread Washington “what’s the Portugal of the Italies?”, as I have made three prior discussions asking what caused Portugal to possess a distinct enough identity, and had enough twists in history, to remain separate from the Spains.

I contend northern Vietnam is the Portugal of the Chinas, but that’s another thread.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

My original impetus for this thread Washington “what’s the Portugal of the Italies?”, as I have made three prior discussions asking what caused Portugal to possess a distinct enough identity, and had enough twists in history, to remain separate from the Spains.

I contend northern Vietnam is the Portugal of the Chinas, but that’s another thread.

I'd say Sicily, in terms of cultural, lingustic, economic, and historical distinctness from the main Northwestern Italian polity, but given how poor and internally divided they are I think a better Iberian analogue for them is the Basques of the Italies. Without time under an outside umbrella or a nerfed Italian unification all together, they'd have trouble holding off the leadership of the Unification movement who wanted them to be Italian, whatever the local opinion on the matter.

 

[Frrf]

I agree, Sicily and Venice ae the easiest to keep out of Italy, though I dare say it might be easier to keep a Venice shorn of its terra firma out than one with extensive mainland possesions. Perhaps if the Venetians had a strong advocate at the Congress of Vienna they could at least restore their republic as a city-state. From there, it could be possible for Venice to either militarily or diplomatically resist Italian unification in whichever form it might take.

 

[Daedalus]

Depends on where you place the PoD. Post-Napoleon, Naples/Sicily is the most obvious choice due to its different language as well as not even being within the original scope of Italy had it remained un-Garibaldi'd. Pre-Napoleon, you had Venice which, again, due to its different language and local sense of identity can be spun off as its own, perhaps with a different turn events reinvigorating it after the loss of its eastern maritime trade monopoly. Any time before that and any of the other big three cities (Milan, Genoa, and Florence) can be viable, though perhaps aggregating their neighbors to become Lombardy, Liguria, and Tuscany, respectively. Each has their own language (Tuscan being more divergent than the closer related though still distinct Ligurian and Lombard). This might butterfly pan-Italian nationalism completely.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

I agree, Sicily and Venice ae the easiest to keep out of Italy, though I dare say it might be easier to keep a Venice shorn of its terra firma out than one with extensive mainland possesions. Perhaps if the Venetians had a strong advocate at the Congress of Vienna they could at least restore their republic as a city-state. From there, it could be possible for Venice to either militarily or diplomatically resist Italian unification in whichever form it might take.

One can't eat marble. A Venice stuck on the Lagoon would be vulnerable to having it's supply of everything cut off.