What other allied countries, territories, or dominions would have taken part in Operation Downfall?

[Gillan1220]

Most Operation Downfall scenarios either have the U.S. invade from the south while the USSR invades Hokkaido even with the lack of sealift.

My guess is Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and other British/Commonwealth territories or Dominions such as the Raj, Malaya, and Rhodesia would have sent their own forces to bring the Empire to heal.

Perhaps the Philippines would also want to take part in it, considering that Filipinos were still angry over Bataan, comfort women, rapes, war crimes, and infanticide committed by the Japanese even though the country was in ruins. For example, the Philippines took part in the Korean War, which was five years from WWII, despite still recovering from the previous war and facing an own Huk insurgency.

Throw along the Netherlands (since the DEI was invaded), France (same case for French Indochina), Mexico (operating in the Liberation of the Philippines using P-47s and P-51s), and Brazil may send in some forces to contribute for the capitulation of Japan.

What do you guys think?

 

[Canuck Wingnut]

The OTL plans included the Commonwealth Corps, built around the British 3rd Division, Australian 10th Division, and Canadian 6th Division, going in in the second wave. All of these units were going to be equipped with US weapons and vehicles (to ease logistics concerns) and organized largely on American lines (to simplify command and control issues). One or two New Zealand brigades were also supposed to be included. Indian army divisions were also proposed, but explicitly rejected by MacArthur- officially on linguistic grounds. That might be reversed in a situation where the war in Japan drags on for an extended period after the first landings, or become controversial post-war.

In addition, the British Pacific Fleet was intended to support the invasion, including its Canadian contingent. To wander off on a bit of a tangent, the Canadian naval contingent was built around the cruiser HMCS Uganda, which created a brief political crisis when the crew were instructed to 'volunteer' for Pacific service (which was supposed to be voluntary) and refused to do so. This is sometimes referred to as the Uganda mutiny, though I don't consider it serious enough to have truly earned that title. Anyway, it somewhat undermined UK and US confidence in the Canadian naval contingent, which was small enough to be unnecessary anyway.

I suspect that the Filipino government would be willing to participate, but also that they would be excluded from the initial landings by MacArthur, likely on similar grounds to the Indian Army's offer. Again, if the fighting lasts at all, I could easily see newly-raised Filipino troops joining the fray, though I don't know much about how quickly they could stand up combat formations in 1945/46.

Mexican and Brazilian air force contributions seem likely to me, at least by attaching pilots to USAAF squadrons.

France and the Netherlands are both interesting cases, with plenty of motivation to participate- not least to convince the US of their right to hold onto their Pacific colonies postwar. OTOH, they were both in the early stages of reorganizing their militaries, and both had lots of motivation to hold as many troops as possible in Europe just in case the Soviets tried something crazy, plus getting their troops to Japan after that decision gets reversed will take a lot of time- they have to be transported all the way from Europe, and neither country can command any significant sea transport capabilities at this time- see the difficulties both had getting any troops to their newly liberated colonies postwar OTL. The American transport authorities will probably prioritize their own combat-experienced units in Europe in the short term, as more reliable and higher value than what either country can offer.

 

[Normal for Norfolk]

Going from memory there was a Commonwealth Corps of a British (3rd?) Australian & a Canadian Infantry Division including as part of the follow up forces in Coronet. The British Pacific Fleet was already involved & Tiger Force of some 12 Bomber Squadrons to supplement the USAAF was planned.

Downfall was a US operation, any Allied contribution basically needed their permission.

Edit: And Ninja'd with a far better post than mine!

 

[Gukpard]

Brazil had a squad being trained to be sent to the Pacific. They finished training after the first bomb fell. If downfall happens they gonna take part in it.

 

[BobTheBarbarian]

Non-US involvement in Downfall and related operations would have been very extensive, more than a million men in total. I've picked out three "big ones" down below, but if I've missed anything else I invite others to correct me:

1.) A huge Royal Navy fleet. Plans dating from Spring 1944 envisioned 5 fleet carriers, 5 light carriers, 6 battleships, and 25 cruisers for the Pacific Fleet alone, not counting the smaller East Indies Fleet. Another estimate mentions up to 12 British carriers in total (the Japanese expected the RN would bring 13 carriers, 4 battleships, 8 cruisers, and 40 destroyers). Overall close to 90% of the Royal Navy's 866,000 officers and men, along with virtually the entirety of the Commonwealth navies, would be committed either to direct operations against Japan (which also probably included the planned landings in Malaya) or to securing lines of communication in the Pacific and Indian oceans. At this time the French presence in the Pacific ocean was also starting to become substantial, though I can't recall anything dealing with their actual involvement against the Japanese mainland.

2.) Tiger Force, an Anglo-Canadian bomber force based on Okinawa. By 15 August 1945 it was assigned 22 bomber squadrons along with miscellaneous support (communications, air-sea rescue, and so on). Additionally about 15 squadrons' worth of tactical aviation were also on the table.

According to the source, the TO&E breakdown of aircraft to be committed by country for the strategic bomber force (not including the tactical aviation) would be as follows:

- RAF: 130 Lancasters, 20 Lincolns, 40 reserve bombers (either Lancasters or Lincolns), 50 Mosquitoes, 10 Catalinas, 9 Austers, 3 Expediters
- RCAF: 40 Lancasters, 120 Lincolns, 3 Austers
- RAAF: 20 Lancasters, 20 Lincolns
- RNZAF: 20 Lancasters

Total: 210 Lancasters, 160 Lincolns, 40 reserves (either Lancaster or Lincoln), 50 Mosquitoes, 10 Catalinas, 12 Austers, 3 Expediters

According to D.M. Giangreco, 34,890 RAF personnel were to be transferred to Okinawa along with an initial contingent of 10 squadrons, down from the 96,000 men envisioned for the original plan where the force was to be based out of Cagayan Valley in the Philippines. According to this idea the US Eighth Air Force, also to be based in the Ryukyus, would be able to relieve some of the logistical burden, especially in engineering, which would allow for a smaller manpower commitment.

3.) The Commonwealth Corps:

This is a bit convoluted so bear with me:

The "Commonwealth Corps" started as a proposal from the British Chiefs of Staff in July 1945 for a 3-5 division contingent for the invasion of Honshu, Operation Coronet. Before this, the US already accepted the participation of a Canadian division (the 6th Infantry) and was separately considering the offer of an Australian Division [JCS 1388/4, 11 July 1945]. The "surprise" offer of the Commonwealth Corps caused a disturbance in the original plan for the 6th Division, which was for the unit to be directly integrated into an American corps for the purpose of forging closer ties between the two countries. The UK's proposal meant this idea would be scrapped in favor of putting the 6th Division under a more "British" command structure.

Likewise, existing plans for Australia's involvement probably would have been integrated into the Corps. In his book, D.M. Giangreco mentions that General MacArthur wanted the powerful Australian I Corps (6th, 7th, and 9th Divisions) for Honshu, which at the the time was engaged in the reduction of Japanese resistance in Borneo and Melanesia. However, Australia's partial demobilization after the defeat of Germany temporarily reduced their commitment to only one reinforced division (the 10th, which would have been amalgamated from existing forces), and Giangreco speculates that ultimately no more than 1-2 Australian divisions would have been involved. Besides this, New Zealand was also determined to include their 2nd Division and was pushing hard for this when the war ended. As mentioned above, the original proposal also included an Indian division from SEAC, but MacArthur vetoed it on linguistic grounds.

From all of this, we can form a fairly good estimate of the force's composition, at least at the divisional level:

- HQ: Lt. Gen. Sir Leslie Morshead
-- UK 3rd Infantry Division
-- 6th Canadian Infantry Division
-- 2nd New Zealand Division
-- Australian 10th Division
-- possibly one other Australian division

Using Army Service Forces' rule of thumb, during the assault phase each division would have a "slice" of 25,000 men and 4,000 vehicles, to be reinforced to 40,000 men and 7,500 vehicles after build-up. This corresponds to a total of 100,000 to 125,000 men and 16,000 to 20,000 vehicles during the assault phase and 160,000 to 200,000 men and 30,000 to 37,500 vehicles after build-up; a considerable force by any measure.

It's also worth pointing out that by July 1945 France also offered a corps of two colonial divisions for operations in the Pacific. JCS 1388/4 indicates that at that time considerations were underway as to where and when these forces could best be put to use, though again Giangreco and others make no mention of French troops being involved in the invasion of Japan proper.

 

[Sport25ing]

I don't know if it true, there was also a proposal for a Dutch Mariniersbrigade (Marine Brigade) in Coronet (like I said I don't know if it true) - a Dutch destroyer HNLMS Tromp (1937) did join the BPF (but after the war)

While not direct, the US supplied B-24M Liberators to the Chinese, so imagine the RoC send their bombers to Okinawa (after the liberation of the remain of their of their territory)

Italy declared war on Japan and both Portugal and Spain were to join the war (most likely not against mainland Japan itself) - their contribution? The war ended before that could be discussed.

 

[BobTheBarbarian]

I don't know if it true, there was also a proposal for a Dutch Mariniersbrigade (Marine Brigade) in Coronet (like I said I don't know if it true) - a Dutch destroyer HNLMS Tromp (1937) did join the BPF (but after the war)

While not direct, the US supplied B-24M Liberators to the Chinese, so imagine the RoC send their bombers to Okinawa (after the liberation of the remain of their of their territory)

Italy declared war on Japan and both Portugal and Spain were to join the war (most likely not against mainland Japan itself) - their contribution? The war ended before that could be discussed.

I believe the Mariniersbrigade was more intended to help recapture the Dutch East Indies than participate in the invasion of Japan.

 

[William_F]

Brazil had a squad being trained to be sent to the Pacific. They finished training after the first bomb fell. If downfall happens they gonna take part in it.

Hopefully such a thing will keep the troublemakers within the Brazilian military away from Brazil itself and allow Getúlio Vargas to remain in power for longer.

 

[Gukpard]

Hopefully such a thing will keep the troublemakers within the Brazilian military away from Brazil itself and allow Getúlio Vargas to remain in power for longer.

Maybe he can delay the coup until the election and be reelected, who knows?

 

[William_F]

Maybe he can delay the coup until the election and be reelected, who knows?

If he managed to pull it off and then had ensured the presidential election happened

Then the only two things he would still need to do are as follows:he needs to win that presidential election and then he will have to make sure he gets inaugurated for the new presidential term of office that he will be expecting to serve.

 

[Perky50]

My Dad was in training for the Canadian 6th division at Camp Borden. He said that the only Canadian kit they would have was their rank and shoulder flashes.

He said that after the first A bomb was dropped their American weapons instructors had a party, and after the second one, they left.

Not long after that, the Canadian army released any of the Canadian recruits that had a job to return to, with the understanding that they f ould be called back if needed.

He checked in at the Osborne Street armory for several years after the wr until he was told there was no further need.

 

[Bellacinos]

My Dad was in training for the Canadian 6th division at Camp Borden. He said that the only Canadian kit they would have was their rank and shoulder flashes.

He said that after the first A bomb was dropped their American weapons instructors had a party, and after the second one, they left.

Not long after that, the Canadian army released any of the Canadian recruits that had a job to return to, with the understanding that they f ould be called back if needed.

He checked in at the Osborne Street armory for several years after the wr until he was told there was no further need.

I heard the party on Okinawa after the Japanese surrender would put Woodstock to shame.

 

[William_F]

I heard the party on Okinawa after the Japanese surrender would put Woodstock to shame.

Woodstock is really overrated compared to that wild party in Okinawa after the Japanese surrender.

 

[Gillan1220]

Woodstock is really overrated compared to that wild party in Okinawa after the Japanese surrender.

Or the wild parties that followed after V-J Day. In the Philippines, so much beer was served to American servicemen. In Times Square, there was large party. One episode of The Terror: Infamy showed a street party in Los Angeles with one American civie saying "We bombed the Japanese!" when news of the atomic bombs were announced on the radio.

 

[William_F]

Or the wild parties that followed after V-J Day. In the Philippines, so much beer was served to American servicemen. In Times Square, there was large party. One episode of The Terror: Infamy showed a street party in Los Angeles with one American civie saying "We bombed the Japanese!" when news of the atomic bombs were announced on the radio.

But how did the Filipinos themselves celebrate the V-J Day?

 

[Gillan1220]

But how did the Filipinos themselves celebrate the V-J Day?

The same as Americans or any other country. Parties on the street. Beer for the servicemen and glint of justice deserved on the Japanese.

 

[William_F]

The same as Americans or any other country. Parties on the street. Beer for the servicemen and glint of justice deserved on the Japanese.

This indeed was very similar to how the Americans celebrated V-J Day.
I tend to research such things these days to avoid contradicting myself.
In the case of the Filipinos the glint of justice was represented by the restoration of the government of Commonwealth of the Philippines which represented the Allied side in Asia and the subsequent surrender of Japan on August 15th 1945.

 

[Gillan1220]

This indeed was very similar to how the Americans celebrated V-J Day.
I tend to research such things these days to avoid contradicting myself.
In the case of the Filipinos the glint was

Glint of satisfaction for the war crimes such Bataan, the rapes, the Manila massacre, and infanticide.

 

[CalBear]

A Philippine contingent is quite possible, especially surviving members of the Scouts (it was a "Regular Army" unit), assuming there were enough personnel who were healthy enough to take the field. God have mercy on any IJA unit they encountered.

Woodstock is really overrated compared to that wild party in Okinawa after the Japanese surrender.

Woodstock had way more hippie chicks with a healthy degree of sexual flexibility and MUCH better dope.

 

[William_F]

A Philippine contingent is quite possible, especially surviving members of the Scouts (it was a "Regular Army" unit), assuming there were enough personnel who were healthy enough to take the field. God have mercy on any IJA unit they encountered.


Woodstock had way more hippie chicks with a healthy degree of sexual flexibility and MUCH better dope.

I now remembered that I need to calm down when I write the comments but this time I only exaggerated because I was feeling very euphoric myself when I wrote that about Woodstock.