With the destruction of Newport News, Norfolk can rise to prominence after the War for a while.
Yeah, I'm actually surprised that Napoleon53 didn't have the Cokies raze Norfolk. Historically Norfolk has always been the larger port, so it would make sense in the madness verse that the reason for Newport News's explosion to be Norfolk's... well... explosion
 
Some thoughts:

-I prefer the standard US blue to the shade of brown that is now being used for the RU. I imagine it's being used to distinguish between the RU and the inevitable NUSA, but I don't think there's much of a need: they're the same entity, for all intents and purposes.
I kind of prefer the blue myself, but honestly there are a LOT of countries using blue, atm, that are only going to expand. I see why DocBrown chose the reddish-brown color.
I went with brown for the RU because blue represents the United States as a whole. The RU is a successor to the old US. If the NUSA is formed, it will use the blue color. I came up with the brown color from the SUCK map color scheme, specifically the "protestant theocratic USA" color. Since the RU becomes theocratic, that shade of brown it is.
 
I went with brown for the RU because blue represents the United States as a whole. The RU is a successor to the old US. If the NUSA is formed, it will use the blue color. I came up with the brown color from the SUCK map color scheme, specifically the "protestant theocratic USA" color. Since the RU becomes theocratic, that shade of brown it is.
I understand, but I think it looks ugly, and the RU is essentially the successor to the United States.
 
A few updates back, I saw a reference to a 'French Haiti' about to conquer the rest of Hispaniola. What's the status of that colony? Obviously it's not independent, but the fact that it's called 'Haiti' and not 'Saint-Domingue' makes me think things went a bit different than OTL. Did Napoleon reconquer the island somehow, or did he allow L'Ouverture to maintain his position as Governor-General (as was promised OTL before being immediately reneged upon). If it's the former, then that's another nightmarish manpower sinkhole for the French, but the latter, an independent black-majority militarized freedmen's state, could be really interesting going forward. Toussaint L'Ouverture is the sort of larger-than-life figure that would fit right into the Madnessverse, to say nothing of someone like Dessalines, and an army of thousands of black veterans native to the Caribbean could be a devastating weapon for the French (or Haitians if they go independent down the line) if turned against anyone else in the region. Going forward, I could see a semi-independent Haiti being a natural ally to the RU (if their anti-Catholicism doesn't ruin everything), based on their mutual militancy, hatred for slavery, revolutionary history, and animus against the Southron states. Haiti under this scenario could also provide a valuable strategic foothold for the RU in the Caribbean, especially if the acquisition of Louisiana/Lewisiana is delayed significantly relative to Madness Classic.
 
New updates tonight and I'll respond to all the interesting questions! I was going to last night but the site was down as soon as I got off work. :noexpression:
 
A few updates back, I saw a reference to a 'French Haiti' about to conquer the rest of Hispaniola. What's the status of that colony? Obviously it's not independent, but the fact that it's called 'Haiti' and not 'Saint-Domingue' makes me think things went a bit different than OTL. Did Napoleon reconquer the island somehow, or did he allow L'Ouverture to maintain his position as Governor-General (as was promised OTL before being immediately reneged upon). If it's the former, then that's another nightmarish manpower sinkhole for the French, but the latter, an independent black-majority militarized freedmen's state, could be really interesting going forward. Toussaint L'Ouverture is the sort of larger-than-life figure that would fit right into the Madnessverse, to say nothing of someone like Dessalines, and an army of thousands of black veterans native to the Caribbean could be a devastating weapon for the French (or Haitians if they go independent down the line) if turned against anyone else in the region. Going forward, I could see a semi-independent Haiti being a natural ally to the RU (if their anti-Catholicism doesn't ruin everything), based on their mutual militancy, hatred for slavery, revolutionary history, and animus against the Southron states. Haiti under this scenario could also provide a valuable strategic foothold for the RU in the Caribbean, especially if the acquisition of Louisiana/Lewisiana is delayed significantly relative to Madness Classic.
You could always have AFC missionaries be wildly succesful in Haiti. Maybe it gets integrated into the RU during the Lewisiana purchase
 
Yeah, I'm actually surprised that Napoleon53 didn't have the Cokies raze Norfolk. Historically Norfolk has always been the larger port, so it would make sense in the madness verse that the reason for Newport News's explosion to be Norfolk's... well... explosion

This is genius. I'm sorely considering changing that to Norfolk, atm. One thing I was considering however would be {spoiler alert} :
Goodyear Enterprises comes down and rebuilds Newport News in their darkest hour, though I might not

A few updates back, I saw a reference to a 'French Haiti' about to conquer the rest of Hispaniola. What's the status of that colony? Obviously it's not independent, but the fact that it's called 'Haiti' and not 'Saint-Domingue' makes me think things went a bit different than OTL. Did Napoleon reconquer the island somehow, or did he allow L'Ouverture to maintain his position as Governor-General (as was promised OTL before being immediately reneged upon).

I've considered writing a chapter on Haiti for a while, and I may include them yet. Especially since I said there would be a slave revolt making an appearance soon. Would make sense to discuss what happened to Haiti ITTL, since it would obviously effect how rioting slaves would be handled/they would handle things.
 
This is genius. I'm sorely considering changing that to Norfolk, atm. One thing I was considering however would be {spoiler alert} :
Goodyear Enterprises comes down and rebuilds Newport News in their darkest hour, though I might not
I'd say edit both in
 
CHAPTER 17
CHAPTER 17
CHRISTMAS, SOUTHRON-STYLE
Mudmarch.jpg

Virginian troops try to keep warm during the harsh winter of 1827

Following the surrender of Norfolk, Jackson and his men burned most of the city to the ground, trying to forever stunt Virginian economic and naval strength. The international community condemned the Carolinas and Jackson personally for "using barbarous tactics" on the civilian population of Virginia's industrial heartland. Meanwhile, out east, General Rumford Pickens was marching south with 20,000 volunteers to sack the Carolinas. He had broken through Confederation General Howard Willis's "Thin Green Line" that held back invaders. The Carolinian line was collapsing in on itself and Pickens was beginning his long march to Charlotte.

Jackson received news that he was cut off from reinforcements on November 10, just a few days after the burning of Norfolk. Angry and afraid his grand plan would fall apart, he took his men and began a march toward Richmond. After a series of small battles resulted in Virginian retreats, morale was still high, but a growing sense of doubt was sweeping through the ranks. They had managed to loot supplies in Norfolk, but they needed to end the war here and now to keep a functioning fighting force. On November 22, Jackson's scouts spotted Richmond, "that most insidious city," on the horizon. The bad news was that it had just been reinforced by the crimson-coated Maryland Volunteer Legion, meaning Maryland had unofficially entered the war. Jackson now saw he had no chance to take the capital without going back south, finding and crushing Pickens and mustering a new army, and then march all the way back, likely in the dead of winter. Virginia had far more manpower to draw from, and as winter set in the Republic was doing everything it could to round up fresh men before the snows arrived.

Jackson announced to his troops on the night of November 23, "My boys, my sons... Maryland, the treacherous beast that she is, has sent down a Legion to defend Richmond. They're dug-in and ready for action. As it stands, sending you up against their fortifications would be like sending you into a meatgrinder. I won't do that."

A young soldier, his leg wrapped up in bandages and a patch over a recently-lost eye yelled out, "We can do it, Chancellor! We can whup 'em! Just like we always have!" A wild chorus of cheers rose up from the loyal troops.

Jackson waved his hand and smiled weakly, his thing lips peeling back over his inhumanly white teeth. The scar from a British officer during the Revolutionary War still was prominent on the side of his face. His gray hair was blowing in the cold November wind. His wounded leg was now in a splint, and he leaned on his horse for support. "I'm sure we can whup 'em, soldier. I know we can. But we wouldn't have enough men left to actually occupy the city or root all the militia bastards out that I'm sure are waiting inside. Also, the Virginian General Pickens has broken through our defensive lines to the south, and we need to march back and exterminate him before he besieges our fair capital. We have no choice, boys. We're not retreating or giving up, we're marching back south to kill that bastard Pickens before he burns down our homes! We start tomorrow, boys! We're going home."

Jackson was not lying. At five o'clock the next morning, his army was on the move again, marching back from exactly where they had come from. Remnants of the Thin Green Line joined them on the way, seeking revenge on Pickens and wanting to redeem themselves to Jackson. Finally, the scouts brought news that Pickens was besieging the city of Greensboro, North Carolina, not that far from the Confederation capital. Jackson knew that Pickens had 20,000 men and he had only about 13,000, but he knew most of the 20,000 were untrained conscripts and militia, so he was determined to break the siege. He dispatched riders all over the state to muster up as many men as they could. 2,000 answered the call in time. As he waited, Jackson's men dug trenchworks. So there was now a siege of a siege, one could say.

On December 15, Jackson and his 15,000 men began their first assault on Pickens' siege camp after an artillery bombardment. The fighting was brutal, and the snow that was coming down was not helping anyone. For two hours, the slaughter raged on. Confederation men advanced under a hail of musket fire across snowy fields, dropping like flies. They reached the Virginian trenches and were beaten back after lengthy hand-to-hand combat. Pulling out and crawling back into their own trenches, Jackson's men were exhausted and tired and cold. Then came the Republic's counter-assault, with 1,000 men pouring into the Confederation trenches. Bloody bayonets were the rule of the day before the Virginians themselves were repulsed and retreated. More cannons opened up, lighting up the night sky with bright and deadly flashes.

Trying to feel each other out for weaknesses, a series of other smaller assaults were attempted by both sides, but eventually grew into a stalemate. A very unusually tough winter for the South had hit that year, and over a foot of snow had fallen. Men were freezing to death and frostbite was rampant. Jackson was still having problems with his leg, and infection was setting in. On December 20, his leg was amputated below the knee by his personal surgeon. With their Chancellor out of commission, the morale of the Confederation army reached an all time low.

The command of the forces in Jackson's absence fell to General Ezekiel Jay Woodhouse. Knowing the end must come soon or the Confederation Army would collapse, he made plans for an offensive assault, the biggest of the war. On the morning of December 25, Christmas Day, Woodhouse addressed his men in the trenches.

"My boys, I know I'm not Old Hickory, but he has put full faith in me to execute this war and bring about total victory. I know things look grim. I know the situation looks almost impossible. But we have several things in our favor. We have God, our Heavenly Father, who looks after us and our nation this and every day. We have our brothers in arms. The soldier standing next to you. In these short months we have been at war, I never have been more proud to serve alongside such a sorry lot of wonderful Southron bastards in all my days, and I love each of you like sons. We are the Sons of the South. We are Dixie. We have the power of five million Virginians. We held at Boykins! We conquered Norfolk and razed it to the ground, its ashes a grave placemarker for all who dare offend the honor of the Confederation with their treacherous, imperialistic ways. We're going to break this siege and murder every Virginian son-of-a-bitch who dared trod his filthy boots onto Virginian soil. We are the Confederation! And if you so please this Christmas morn, I ask you to follow me into the merry mouth of Hell!"

The Virginians expected no action that day, as it was Christmas and they believed no gentleman would attack on Christmas Day. A cheer was heard that shook the floors of the Virginian trenches, followed by a horrific artillery Carolinian bombardment on their positions. From across the snowy fields, appearing like raging ice-wraiths on the horizon, came the Confederation Army, bayonets pointed forward, held at waist level. Tattered flags bearing the Moon and Stars were blowing in the wind. One foot after the next through the cold and snow the Carolinians came. "The Grand Old Flag that Bears the Moon and Stars" was struck up by their bands, some even playing bagpipes. Cavalry soldiers, mostly on foot because of horses being killed during the artillery barrages, came with them also, their swords drawn and pointed forward. The Virginians were terrified and their alarm bells were ringing within seconds. The soldiers raced for their positions, frantically checking their muskets and trying to figure out what was going on. The artillery let up.

The only thing that was heard now besides the din of the alarm bells was the sound of the chanting Confederation Army. With every step, they loot loose a "Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"


Then came the order from Woodhouse.

"Charge!"


"HUZZAH!"

Screaming and yelling like banshees, the 9,000 remaining Carolinians rushed the Virginian trenches at break-neck speed, sloshing through the mounds of snow and frozen corpses like demons, hellbent on killing every Virginian in sight. The Virginians finally opened up their guns, letting loose deadly barrages and killing scores of enemies. But still the Sons of the South came, their bayonets growing closer and closer every second. Within a minute, they were upon them, jumping down in the trenches bayonets first, slaughtering the Virginian defenders like animals. Before long, the Virginians found themselves pulling out of their own trenches and rushing for the inner-area of the siege site. It was then the Carolinians realized their fate. The Virginians had rigged their trenches to blow if they ever were overrun. The first explosion erupted in a giant ball of fire, taking out scores of Confederation men. Then another and another. Before long, planks, men, weapons, and body parts were all raining from the sky. Woodhouse himself was killed in the initial blast, his body virtually turned to ash. Hundreds of men were dead. Hundreds were burning. Thousands were screaming. The Virginians immediately opened up a new round of deadly musket balls, killing even more. As the Confederation soldiers finally began to run for their lives, it was too late. 6,000 Carolinians died in just this one assault, making the single bloodiest assault in North American history up to that point.

AKG114981.jpg

Depiction of the Confederation charge at the Battle of Greensboro

With the infection still spreading through his body, the former face hyper-masculine martial prowess knew defeat for the first time. He gazed hazily around the tent, his doctor holding him down as he heard the massive explosions. When Jackson heard the news of the destruction of his forces in the trenches, he knew it was over. Sweating a cold sweat, his eyes dilating, his body convulsing, he shrieked, "What's happened to my boys! Where are my boys! My boys! Oh God, please save my darling boys! Doctor, tell me what has happened to my precious sons!"

The doctor held him down till he stopped shaking and screaming before lying to comfort him, "We have broken through. We hit their ammunition depot and they are running away like frightened rabbits. Greensboro is saved."

Jackson grew stiff and quiet, laying on his cot facing the ceiling, his eyes looking but not seeing, mouthing, barely whispering the words, "Ah. Yes. Good. We have victory. I knew my boys would beat the bastards, by damn. They're brave, doctor, so incredibly brave. Much braver than me. What good sons I have, doctor."

Those being his last words, Chancellor Andrew Jackson breathed his last, his mouth ajar and his eyes glazed over. Jackson was dead. And the war was lost.

As the Confederation forces out west heard the news by January 8, 1828, they slowly began surrendering, small groups at a time and then finally the Grand Army of West Carolina under General William Camden raised the white flag and surrendered at Nashville. The Virginian-Carolinian War was over, but the "Era of Hard Feelings" was not...
 
Last edited:
CHAPTER 17
CHRISTMAS, SOUTHRON-STYLE
Mudmarch.jpg

Virginian troops try to keep warm during the harsh winter of 1827

Following the surrender of Norfolk, Jackson and his men burned most of the city to the ground, trying to forever stunt Virginian economic and naval strength. The international community condemned the Carolinas and Jackson personally for "using barbarous tactics" on the civilian population of Virginia's industrial heartland. Meanwhile, out east, General Rumford Pickens was marching south with 20,000 volunteers to sack the Carolinas. He had broken through Confederation General Howard Willis's "Thin Green Line" that held back invaders. The Carolinian line was collapsing in on itself and Pickens was beginning his long march to Charlotte.

Jackson received news that he was cut off from reinforcements on November 10, just a few days after the burning of Norfolk. Angry and afraid his grand plan would fall apart, he took his men and began a march toward Richmond. After a series of small battles resulted in Virginian retreats, morale was still high, but a growing sense of doubt was sweeping through the ranks. They had managed to loot supplies in Norfolk, but they needed to end the war here and now to keep a functioning fighting force. On November 22, Jackson's scouts spotted Richmond, "that most insidious city," on the horizon. The bad news was that it had just been reinforced by the crimson-coated Maryland Volunteer Legion, meaning Maryland had unofficially entered the war. Jackson now saw he had no chance to take the capital without going back south, finding and crushing Pickens and mustering a new army, and then march all the way back, likely in the dead of winter. Virginia had far more manpower to draw from, and as winter set in the Republic was doing everything it could to round up fresh men before the snows arrived.

Jackson announced to his troops on the night of November 23, "My boys, my sons... Maryland, the treacherous beast that she is, has sent down a Legion to defend Richmond. They're dug-in and ready for action. As it stands, sending you up against their fortifications would be like sending you into a meatgrinder. I won't do that."

A young soldier, his leg wrapped up in bandages and a patch over a recently-lost eye yelled out, "We can do it, Chancellor! We can whup 'em! Just like we always have!" A wild chorus of cheers rose up from the loyal troops.

Jackson waved his hand and smiled weakly, his thing lips peeling back over his inhumanly white teeth. The scar from a British officer during the Revolutionary War still was prominent on the side of his face. His gray hair was blowing in the cold November wind. His wounded leg was now in a splint, and he leaned on his horse for support. "I'm sure we can whup 'em, soldier. I know we can. But we wouldn't have enough men left to actually occupy the city or root all the militia bastards out that I'm sure are waiting inside. Also, the Virginian General Pickens has broken through our defensive lines to the south, and we need to march back and exterminate him before he besieges our fair capital. We have no choice, boys. We're not retreating or giving up, we're marching back south to kill that bastard Pickens before he burns down our homes! We start tomorrow, boys! We're going home."

Jackson was not lying. At five o'clock the next morning, his army was on the move again, marching back from exactly where they had come from. Remnants of the Thin Green Line joined them on the way, seeking revenge on Pickens and wanting to redeem themselves to Jackson. Finally, the scouts brought news that Pickens was besieging the city of Greensboro, North Carolina, not that far from the Confederation capital. Jackson knew that Pickens had 20,000 men and he had only about 13,000, but he knew most of the 20,000 were untrained conscripts and militia, so he was determined to break the siege. He dispatched riders all over the state to muster up as many men as they could. 2,000 answered the call in time. As he waited, Jackson's men dug trenchworks. So there was now a siege of a siege, one could say.

On December 15, Jackson and his 15,000 men began their first assault on Pickens' siege camp after an artillery bombardment. The fighting was brutal, and the snow that was coming down was not helping anyone. For two hours, the slaughter raged on. Confederation men advanced under a hail of musket fire across snowy fields, dropping like flies. They reached the Virginian trenches and were beaten back after lengthy hand-to-hand combat. Pulling out and crawling back into their own trenches, Jackson's men were exhausted and tired and cold. Then came the Republic's counter-assault, with 1,000 men pouring into the Confederation trenches. Bloody bayonets were the rule of the day before the Virginians themselves were repulsed and retreated. More cannons opened up, lighting up the night sky with bright and deadly flashes.

Trying to feel each other out for weaknesses, a series of other smaller assaults were attempted by both sides, but eventually grew into a stalemate. A very unusually tough winter for the South had hit that year, and over a foot of snow had fallen. Men were freezing to death and frostbite was rampant. Jackson was still having problems with his leg, and infection was setting in. On December 20, his leg was amputated below the knee by his personal surgeon. With their Chancellor out of commission, the morale of the Confederation army reached an all time low.

The command of the forces in Jackson's absence fell to General Ezekiel Jay Woodhouse. Knowing the end must come soon or the Confederation Army would collapse, he made plans for an offensive assault, the biggest of the war. On the morning of December 25, Christmas Day, Woodhouse addressed his men in the trenches.

"My boys, I know I'm not Old Hickory, but he has put full faith in me to execute this war and bring about total victory. I know things look grim. I know the situation looks almost impossible. But we have several things in our favor. We have God, our Heavenly Father, who looks after us and our nation this and every day. We have our brothers in arms. The soldier standing next to you. In these short months we have been at war, I never have been more proud to serve alongside such a sorry lot of wonderful Southron bastards in all my days, and I love each of you like sons. We are the Sons of the South. We are Dixie. We have the power of five million Virginians. We held at Boykins! We conquered Norfolk and razed it to the ground, its ashes a grave placemarker for all who dare offend the honor of the Confederation with their treacherous, imperialistic ways. We're going to break this siege and murder every Virginian son-of-a-bitch who dared trod his filthy boots onto Virginian soil. We are the Confederation! And if you so please this Christmas morn, I ask you to follow me into the mouth of Hell!"

The Virginians expected no action that day, as it was Christmas and they believed no gentleman would attack on Christmas Day. A cheer was heard that shook the floors of the Virginian trenches, followed by a horrific artillery Carolinian bombardment on their positions. From across the snowy fields, appearing like raging ice-wraiths on the horizon, came the Confederation Army, bayonets pointed forward, held at waist level. Tattered flags bearing the Moon and Stars were blowing in the wind. One foot after the next through the cold and snow the Carolinians came. "The Grand Old Flag that Bears the Moon and Stars" was struck up by their bands, some even playing bagpipes. Cavalry soldiers, mostly on foot because of horses being killed during the artillery barrages, came with them also, their swords drawn and pointed forward. The Virginians were terrified and their alarm bells were ringing within seconds. The soldiers raced for their positions, frantically checking their muskets and trying to figure out what was going on. The artillery let up.

The only thing that was heard now besides the din of the alarm bells was the sound of the chanting Confederation Army. With every step, they loot loose a "Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"

"Huzzah!"


Then came the order from Woodhouse.

"Charge!"


"HUZZAH!"

Screaming and yelling like banshees, the 9,000 remaining Carolinians rushed the Virginian trenches at break-neck speed, sloshing through the mounds of snow and frozen corpses like demons, hellbent on killing every Virginian in sight. The Virginians finally opened up their guns, letting loose deadly barrages and killing scores of enemies. But still the Sons of the South came, their bayonets growing closer and closer every second. Within a minute, they were upon them, jumping down in the trenches bayonets first, slaughtering the Virginian defenders like animals. Before long, the Virginians found themselves pulling out of their own trenches and rushing for the inner-area of the siege site. It was then the Carolinians realized their fate. The Virginians had rigged their trenches to blow if they ever were overrun. The first explosion erupted in a giant ball of fire, taking out scores of Confederation men. Then another and another. Before long, planks, men, weapons, and body parts were all raining from the sky. Woodhouse himself was killed in the initial blast, his body virtually turned to ash. Hundreds of men were dead. Hundreds were burning. Thousands were screaming. The Virginians immediately opened up a new round of deadly musket balls, killing even more. As the Confederation soldiers finally began to run for their lives, it was too late. 6,000 Carolinians died in just this one assault, making the single bloodiest assault in North American history up to that point.

AKG114981.jpg

Depiction of the Confederation charge at the Battle of Greensboro

With the infection still spreading through his body, the former face hyper-masculine martial prowess knew defeat for the first time. He gazed hazily around the tent, his doctor holding him down as he heard the massive explosions. When Jackson heard the news of the destruction of his forces in the trenches, he knew it was over. Sweating a cold sweat, his eyes dilating, his body convulsing, he shrieked, "What's happened to my boys! Where are my boys! My boys! Oh God, please save my darling boys! Doctor, tell me what has happened to my precious sons!"

The doctor held him down till he stopped shaking and screaming before lying to comfort him, "We have broken through. We hit their ammunition depot and they are running away like frightened rabbits. Greensboro is saved."

Jackson grew stiff and quiet, laying on his cot facing the ceiling, his eyes looking but not seeing, mouthing, barely whispering the words, "Ah. Yes. Good. We have victory. I knew my boys would beat the bastards, by damn. They're brave, doctor, so incredibly brave. Much braver than me. What good sons I have, doctor."

Those being his last words, Chancellor Andrew Jackson breathed his last, his mouth ajar and his eyes glazed over. Jackson was dead. And the war was lost.

As the Confederation forces out west heard the news by January 8, 1828, they slowly began surrendering, small groups at a time and then finally the Grand Army of West Carolina under General William Camden raised the white flag and surrendered at Nashville. The Virginian-Carolinian War was over, but the "Era of Hard Feelings" was not...

And so we bid Old Hickory a fond farewell. We shall never again see the likes of him.
 
"My boys, I know I'm not Old Hickory, but he has put full faith in me to execute this war and bring about total victory. I know things look grim. I know the situation looks almost impossible. But we have several things in our favor. We have God, our Heavenly Father, who looks after us and our nation this and every day. We have our brothers in arms. The soldier standing next to you. In these short months we have been at war, I never have been more proud to serve alongside such a sorry lot of wonderful Southron bastards in all my days, and I love each of you like sons. We are the Sons of the South. We are Dixie. We have the power of five million Virginians. We held at Boykins! We conquered Norfolk and razed it to the ground, its ashes a grave placemarker for all who dare offend the honor of the Confederation with their treacherous, imperialistic ways. We're going to break this siege and murder every Virginian son-of-a-bitch who dared trod his filthy boots onto Virginian soil. We are the Confederation! And if you so please this Christmas morn, I ask you to follow me into the mouth of Hell!"

This is awesome!

I kinda hate that Carolina lost, but it is understandable. Plus, this war had no good guys really.
 
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