kingwilliam14
Banned
I wonder how the Union will react if the Catholic Church sexual abuse cases still come to light.
"What Madness Is This?" Volume I: The Union Forever
- Thread starter Napoleon53
- Start date
Probably with loud expressions of vindication.
I could also see there being similar cases occurring in the AFC and news of them be suppressed by the Union.
A few questions:
1. Is the Union going to screw around with Easter? I mean they already banned Christmas (the bastards) and replaced it with a horrific fascist monstrosity. Could we see some holiday, perhaps heavily dosed with Spiritual Marxism, about the future Resurrection of the Patriot-Saints?
2. What's old Teddy up to? I know he won't be President, but I would love to see him as a rival to Steele in a future power struggle: "You might be the Man of Steel, but I'm Stronger than a Bull Moose! All Hail!" Even though he'll lose, Teddy going down guns blazing (perhaps surrounded by his Rough Riders) is a far more fitting fate for the man than dying of pneumonia like in Classic.
3. How's the Nordreich doing internally? I know in Classic they had something of a fascist fifth column. Will that still be a factor or will they be more anti-fascist than Classic later on? Something I could see happening during the Oswald years is the Reich loudly denouncing the Americans (because of course) while actually melding some fascist elements onto their government and society.
1. Is the Union going to screw around with Easter? I mean they already banned Christmas (the bastards) and replaced it with a horrific fascist monstrosity. Could we see some holiday, perhaps heavily dosed with Spiritual Marxism, about the future Resurrection of the Patriot-Saints?
2. What's old Teddy up to? I know he won't be President, but I would love to see him as a rival to Steele in a future power struggle: "You might be the Man of Steel, but I'm Stronger than a Bull Moose! All Hail!" Even though he'll lose, Teddy going down guns blazing (perhaps surrounded by his Rough Riders) is a far more fitting fate for the man than dying of pneumonia like in Classic.
3. How's the Nordreich doing internally? I know in Classic they had something of a fascist fifth column. Will that still be a factor or will they be more anti-fascist than Classic later on? Something I could see happening during the Oswald years is the Reich loudly denouncing the Americans (because of course) while actually melding some fascist elements onto their government and society.
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Of course they wouldn't. But of course they'd use the opportunity to say "these people who are claiming to be the rightful religious authority appointed by God are literally a bunch of corrupt, selfish child-rapists". And don't just tell it once. Discuss it and emphasise it over and over and over again. Make sure that ordinary people hear it often enough that, every time people hear anyone claim that a Catholic priest should be obeyed, listened to or even respected, and every time someone even mentions "Catholic priest", the first thing that leaps straight into people's minds is "oh, Catholic priests, you mean the kiddie-fiddlers."
No government—no, not just governments, we can be more general—no organisation of any real significance would pass up such a golden opportunity to embarrass the enemies it hates.
In the same way, plenty of far-right people in the West today, who hate all Muslims including women, are still happy to claim that all Muslim men approve of being horribly oppressive to women. Western far-rightists don't care about Muslim women, obviously; they want to expel Muslims from Christian countries; but it's an opportunity for them to make Muslims look bad, so they take it.
kingwilliam14
Banned
Also as someone of Yankee Protestant heritage (Philadelphia Main Line) who's long had an ambivalence towards the Catholic Church (the Inquisition, sexual abuse, and corruption kind of disgust me), this alternate world has certainly given me a lot to think about who I am as a person.
You mention this a lot: the Nordreich allying with Carolina and being enemies with the Americans. But I would argue they wouldn't.
The Republican Union of America is far bigger than Carolina, it has far more people than Carolina, it has far more resources than Carolina, it has far more trade to offer the Nordreich than Carolina does, overall it's a far more important country than Carolina, and it shares an important common enemy
This is not the modern era of bright, shiny Wilsonian or Bushian idealism: self-determination, exporting freedom, or stuff like that. Nor is it the Second World War against the fascist powers, nor is it the Cold War between the USSR and the USA. It's the era of Bismarckian politics in international relations. National interest matters all; no-one will care about your human rights record, except maybe (in the later end of this era) for propaganda purposes. Countries will happily ally with their ideological opposites. This was shown in OTL by numerous examples, like Republican France (one of the freest and most liberal countries in the world at the time) and mostly-democratic parliamentary Britain allying with autocratic reactionary Tsarist Russia. And it wasn't just the Entente side. Germany allied itself with the Ottoman Empire while the Ottomans were busily committing hideous genocidal massacres against the Armenians. The Armenians were Germany's fellow Christians and they were being massacred. The great powers barely paid attention. The German government deemed it advantageous to ally with the Ottoman government, so they did. Ottoman oppression/cruelty/"madness" didn't stop that at all.
Large nations won't care about the plight of poor oppressed small nations unless they find it politically convenient to pretend to care. The Nordreich won't refuse to ally with the RUA out of bright shining moral conviction, unless they're far nicer, shinier and more idealistic than real-life countries in this era of history. They'd quietly ignore the RUA's internal cruelty as the OTL French Republic ignored the evils of the Russians regime, shake hands, make money from trade with a rising continental-scale great power (rather than a small regional power living in the shadow of a giant), and be gleeful for the fear that it puts on French faces.
The Prussian-American alliance in the original Madnessverse made perfect sense. (So, too, did the breakup: the RU had overrun the French on its continent whereas the Prussians had decided to make peace with them and establish a new European order in partnership with them, and thus they no longer had a common enemy.) I won't say it was inevitable, because things in politics are always dependent on human decisions and human decisions are sometimes weird; but it was so obviously advantageous to both sides that it was highly likely. And that was in the old verse. In this rewrite, where the RU's pro-Bonaparte enemies in North America are the Californians, Carolinians and Canadians (all of whom put together are dwarfed by American population and industry), the alliance is even more attractive to the Nordreich than that. Why? Because if a Nordreich-vs-Bonaparte war breaks out in Europe, the RU will crush its brave but tiny-populated North American enemies like an elephant sitting on a puppy and then the Americans will be able to send troops to help their allies in the effort to bring down the Bonaparte empire in Europe.
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kingwilliam14
Banned
To be honest, I see a sense of pan-Americanism eventually developing amongst the Carolinians (given that they're already Protestant and trending towards anti-Bonaparte). Anglo-Normanism is pretty dumb as a distinct ethnic nationalism because Carolinians and Americans are by and large of the same ethnicity. Most white Carolinians would be considered Betters (assuming they aren't Catholic). They might realize they have more to benefit by joining the Betters of the RU rather than being its enemy.
Or they will find that trading with the Americans is too important and fall into an agreeable position where each side just leaves each other alone. And given that the RU obviously sees Carolina as a weak spot and potential enemy staging ground, they will make sure the regime in Charleston is a friendly one.
Or they will find that trading with the Americans is too important and fall into an agreeable position where each side just leaves each other alone. And given that the RU obviously sees Carolina as a weak spot and potential enemy staging ground, they will make sure the regime in Charleston is a friendly one.
That is all quite understandable and logical. I should have reworded my question because I meant further down the road (think the Chucky years) when basically the whole world hated the Americans and considered them a dangerous threat. That wasn't the focus of my question here.
I know what you're saying logically speaking, and do indeed agree. I merely mention this irrational hope because despite all of Carolina's faults, and indeed despite all the horrors Carolina has inflicted, well it's somewhat less stomach churning for me to read about a genocide in, Mexico than it is one in Greensboro, and it is truly horrifying to realize my home state (ITTL my homeland) has no hope whatsoever. I don't expect Carolina to ally with the Prussians.. In fact, I'm pretty sure I mentioned how unlikely it is at least once. But nonetheless I talk about it because even though this is a story, it is quite a visceral one and is marching to a conclusion that is... unfortunate.
I agree with most of this too. However, I will argue in favor of Anglo-Normanism for one distinct reason: it was an actual propaganda tool the South used IOTL before and during the Civil War. I won't try to say it was anything remotely resembling a primary reason for Southerners to want to fight, but that was a legitimate belief people expressed. I don't see why, in a world where people seem to have no problem drawing arbitrary ethnic distinctions when it favors them politically, the Carolinians wouldn't claim descent from another ethnic group to distinguish themselves from a nation that, even if a decent number of people sympathize with it, is a rather frightening opponent of the government in Raleigh.
I wouldn't say it has no hope whatsoever @Murica1776. I do think it's got no hope whatsoever in a war if it decides to pick a fight with the gigantic continental empire which is its neighbour, for the same reason why it usually isn't a great idea for a small nation to pick a fight with a gigantic continental empire which is its neighbour. But. Well. They have an alternative: not do that.
If Carolina doesn't decide to oppose America, it presently looks like they'll probably be fine. If America wanted to invade Carolina, the Americans could do it and it's highly unlikely they would lose. But plenty of time has passed when they could have invaded Carolina and they haven't, which implies that they currently don't want to (perhaps for the sake of providing rebellious citizens in the Southern states with an escape valve, to loosen the pressure of internal dissent). I don't think they'll have a problem as long as Carolina doesn't provoke the RU. For example, financially supporting raids into the Republican Union by Carolinians or dissatisfied American 'inferiors' would be a spectacularly bad idea, and allowing a foreign great power to station troops on Carolinian territory, thus letting a potential enemy get a beachhead on North American soil near Philadelphia, would be an even worse idea than that.
TL;DR: If you're standing next to a sleeping lion, that's not great, but it could be worse. Lions like sleeping. Do not poke the sleeping lion with a stick.
I agree on this point. Yes, the white Carolinians and white Americans might be very similar in genuine descent; but racism and ethnicity have never been about fact and science. Ethnicity is scarily arbitrary. For example, the origin of the distinction between Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda lies in extreme exaggeration by European colonial powers for "divide and conquer" purposes. It's hideously tragic that they came to hate each other so much that there was a genocide even though they're basically the same people.
When you wrote about the "Normans" and "Anglo-Saxons" (even though the distinction is obviously artificial; Carolinians and Americans are both descended from both) that's what I had in mind. Unfortunately, it's really easy to make up tribes and get human beings to hate each other.
If Carolina doesn't decide to oppose America, it presently looks like they'll probably be fine. If America wanted to invade Carolina, the Americans could do it and it's highly unlikely they would lose. But plenty of time has passed when they could have invaded Carolina and they haven't, which implies that they currently don't want to (perhaps for the sake of providing rebellious citizens in the Southern states with an escape valve, to loosen the pressure of internal dissent). I don't think they'll have a problem as long as Carolina doesn't provoke the RU. For example, financially supporting raids into the Republican Union by Carolinians or dissatisfied American 'inferiors' would be a spectacularly bad idea, and allowing a foreign great power to station troops on Carolinian territory, thus letting a potential enemy get a beachhead on North American soil near Philadelphia, would be an even worse idea than that.
TL;DR: If you're standing next to a sleeping lion, that's not great, but it could be worse. Lions like sleeping. Do not poke the sleeping lion with a stick.
I agree on this point. Yes, the white Carolinians and white Americans might be very similar in genuine descent; but racism and ethnicity have never been about fact and science. Ethnicity is scarily arbitrary. For example, the origin of the distinction between Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda lies in extreme exaggeration by European colonial powers for "divide and conquer" purposes. It's hideously tragic that they came to hate each other so much that there was a genocide even though they're basically the same people.
When you wrote about the "Normans" and "Anglo-Saxons" (even though the distinction is obviously artificial; Carolinians and Americans are both descended from both) that's what I had in mind. Unfortunately, it's really easy to make up tribes and get human beings to hate each other.
That is one of the most interesting conversations I've read in the comments for a while. Love it! I have some plans up my sleeve to shock you all in the Great War!
Thought this quite appropriate for the CYB. Just needs some minor alteration.
I believe the next chapter will be about Baseball as the World Sport and then maybe a big chapter on Europe and Asia and then the Great War will get rolling!
Thought this quite appropriate for the CYB. Just needs some minor alteration.
I believe the next chapter will be about Baseball as the World Sport and then maybe a big chapter on Europe and Asia and then the Great War will get rolling!
kingwilliam14
Banned
In the original, someone posted a map of languages and dialects in North America. Are you going to go more in-depth in language in this timeline?
How does Yankee English differ from our own?
How has French evolved with the Napoleonic victory?
How does Yankee English differ from our own?
How has French evolved with the Napoleonic victory?
I wouldn't say it has no hope whatsoever @Murica1776. I do think it's got no hope whatsoever in a war if it decides to pick a fight with the gigantic continental empire which is its neighbour, for the same reason why it usually isn't a great idea for a small nation to pick a fight with a gigantic continental empire which is its neighbour. But. Well. They have an alternative: not do that.
If Carolina doesn't decide to oppose America, it presently looks like they'll probably be fine. If America wanted to invade Carolina, the Americans could do it and it's highly unlikely they would lose. But plenty of time has passed when they could have invaded Carolina and they haven't, which implies that they currently don't want to (perhaps for the sake of providing rebellious citizens in the Southern states with an escape valve, to loosen the pressure of internal dissent). I don't think they'll have a problem as long as Carolina doesn't provoke the RU. For example, financially supporting raids into the Republican Union by Carolinians or dissatisfied American 'inferiors' would be a spectacularly bad idea, and allowing a foreign great power to station troops on Carolinian territory, thus letting a potential enemy get a beachhead on North American soil near Philadelphia, would be an even worse idea than that.
TL;DR: If you're standing next to a sleeping lion, that's not great, but it could be worse. Lions like sleeping. Do not poke the sleeping lion with a stick.
That's all fair. I guess I was operating under the assumption that the Union would decide to invade Carolina during the Great War because it's a relatively soft target that's within their revanchist claims. However, if the Union is more concerned with the "entree" (California and Canada) rather than the "side dish" of Carolina, and the Carolinas declare neutrality, its not likely for Custer to expend valuable resources going after a small fish. Hell, if they play their cards right after the war, we could even see a slightly enlarged Jacksonland depending on how the African front shapes up. Territorial disputes over Portuguese Africa or the southern parts of Prussian Africa (depending on who has the upper hand) could be "solved" by handing over a small chunk of territory to the neutral Carolinas. Kind of like what happened with Liberia in Classic, where the Union bought the land as a neutral third party between the Prussians and French.
Confederation of the Carolinas?That is one of the most interesting conversations I've read in the comments for a while. Love it! I have some plans up my sleeve to shock you all in the Great War!
Thought this quite appropriate for the CYB. Just needs some minor alteration.
I believe the next chapter will be about Baseball as the World Sport and then maybe a big chapter on Europe and Asia and then the Great War will get rolling!
Perhaps an update on the Union allies. I'd like to know how CoCaro, Japan, Australia, and the British are doing
Maybe Goldstein liked to experiment and always wanted more resources and new toys...
Here's some quick rapid fire ideas:
Scotland, Isolationist, Democratic but is starting to see the beginnings of a multi party system with numerous political parties popping up including a Socialist party (clutches pearls)
Wales, allied with Europa, is starting to free itself up since the death of there first leader and are starting to accept middle class folk into there aristocratic democratic government too much controversy (what next women having the right to vote...)
Ireland, ruled by a Bonaparte, democratic to a point,if people complain they can discuss the issue with the nice Secret Policemen who lives down the road
England: ALL HAIL THE COMMONWEALTH, DEATH TO THE SCOTTISH, WELSH AND IRISH. ALL WILL COWER UNDER THE MIGHTY ANGLO-SAXON BOOT
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I am sure there are major companies, the Europans may have 'Imperial Corporations or Royal Corporations' that are partially owned by the Royal family and nobility. Other countries have State Corporations that receive funding and government contracts to run services such as railroads or the mail. Then there are the major companies that have grow wealthy from overseas development or industrialization such as Krupp etc. Then you have the medium and small companies. The big companies may use espionage, sabotage, propaganda, price wars and headhunting but nothing like the RU. Well, not as blatant. The Europans and Nordreich may overlook fights in the colonies as long as it is not too bloody or attracts too much attention.
I'm imaging a similar conversation occurring between two English citizens:
"I keep on forgetting that the Scottish are betters...like we hate the Irish so surely we should hate the Scottish"
"Shh just go along with it"
can you make wales go mad, Ireland and Scotland already have the potential for going mad. and if Scotland does goes made, can you make them as mad as Murica1776 Scotland, if not madder