"What Madness Is This?" Redux: The Union Forever

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Napoleon53, Sep 13, 2018.

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  1. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    Arguably possible with West Germania. There's too much sectarian bad blood for the territory to ever be ruled by a Catholic administration again, whether of France or of the Second Bund. And I doubt Europa would want it reunifying with the East under any ideology to once again threaten Paris. So West Germania remaining independent is a deal Europa will take as long as it refuses to be a beachhead for an RU invasion, which may be a good deal for West Germania depending on how much pressure its rulers are under.

    Futurism would be a pretty effective organizing principle for Illuminist economics, the Beutelists already have more classically leftist approaches covered with their... I believe it was some form of syndicalism?

    Imagine if the Russians adopt their own Economic Clan system! And start building their own Destiny Road to rival America's lmao. Really drive home the "they're Madder than they seem at first blush" point while also making them all the more efficient/dangerous. But it would have to be dressed up in layers of "workplace democracy/consultation" since the Illuminists got big off the backs of a labor revolt in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  2. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    I disagree over this. I don't think Kapp is pragmatic and/or rational enough to stay neutral and avoid the conflict. There is also the fact Kapp is probably too antisemitic to tolerate Napoleon V's protection of the french jewish comunity ( of course Napoleon V himself probably isn't a fan of Kapp's antisemitism)
    However i can see England playing such a role considering it is not surrounded by hostile enemies unlike Germania
     
  3. Napoleon53 Pinnacle Order of Monocled Sirs ಠ_ರೃ

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    Sorry for the inactivity guys! Been not feeling great and also playing The Outer Worlds.

    A lot of TOW seems like Madness in space. It wouldn't be hard to picture the Economic Clans replacing them and the game would still be basically the same. Lol
     
  4. Josephsullivan12@icloud The Human Porch.

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    Yeah but allying, even If unnofically, with Europa would mean being a de facto ally of Ireland, which would cause...…… issues, too say the least. On both sides.
     
  5. Born in the USSA Well-Known Member

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    Feel better! There's something going around
     
  6. Murica1776 Building an American Tomorrow

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    Between that and the fact that Supreme Director Winnie is a brainwashed puppet of his Yankee mother, I could still see Kapp going for an alliance with Europa that Philly chooses to overlook rather than the Brits.
     
  7. Atomicpunk0 Well-Known Member

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    Jun 16, 2018
    Speaking of occult and eldritch inspired lore, I kind of had an idea for a volunteer Europan commando unit in the coming American war. Either led by or inspired by Goebbels, they name themselves The Nacht Haunts: strange faceless demons that used to torment the author's childhood nightmares.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Born in the USSA Well-Known Member

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    Norway swoops in, the hero the Germanian fascists need! Decades of marshalling forces and taking foreign intelligence tips from Phildel are finally going to pay off!
     
  9. Philosopher Jaden Smith Unknown member

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    Mar 6, 2019
    This clip really reminded me of this TL.


    Behold, the glorious future that awaits! All the world, united under our Manifest Destiny! All Hail!
     
  10. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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  11. Simeon La empresa crecerá más grande

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    “From being the greatest titan of industry, decades of mismanagement had culminated with the Goodyear family just specialising in footwear. And by that, they just survive by underpaying their employee’s wages not unlike how they’ve done with their infees. ... Guess that some things don’t change.”

    - Milton Keyness on the Goodyear Family’s fall to irrelevance, 1965
     
  12. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    Sorry my bad. I should have expressed myself better: i agree with you that England has no reason to side with Europea, but i think Churcill will act like OTL Francisco Franco and simply stay neutral during the conflict.
    I can see him sending "volunteers" to help the eurofascists but i doubt he wants to be involved in another conflict: not only he has nothing to gain from another Great War, but it is pretty clear that his regime survives mostly thanks to the RU's support ( and right now the RU is kinda busy)
     
  13. Murica1776 Building an American Tomorrow

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    Alright, so I have a couple questions/food for thought items for everyone.

    1. What exactly are Carolina's thoughts on Mittleafrika? I'm sure there's part of the whole "we're in this together" mentality towards the natives, but I also think there's lots of room for territorial resentment on the Cokie's part given the sheer size of the territory and their land hunger.

    2. I'm really curious about what the rest of the world's culture will look like in the future. We know that the Union and their non-Cokie allies are going to be a drugged up, oversexed, 70's punk, gun crazy mess. For obvious reasons, I feel like the rest of the world would be loathe to imitate any of this. One idea I like from Classic is Europa having a Napoleonic revival. The Loomies could have some kind of eternal Stalinist Socialist Realism vibe, although there are probably better ideas. I'm just spitballing here.
     
  14. traveller76 Member

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    Fort Worth, TX
    My thinking on Carolina is there will be differences between first-generation versus second-generation, city versus rural, conservative versus progressive (for Carolina). Think the Range Wars of the American West between landowners, merchants and bandits (both native and Union support).

    Most Fascist societies OTL seemed to go back to some mythical-golden age so I figure that most of the Union and allies would be some Roman Republic/Sparta type style since they can build from the ground up and have the will and resources to do so. Australia and Britain may have some sort of English Revival style. Carolina would be the Old South. Chinese, Middle Eastern, Indian and Asian states will be a blend of old and new with new buildings replacing destroyed buildings. In the Destiny Road article the Union was adopting a more streamlined, sleek Art Deco style.
     
  15. Alexander Helios Pre-Columbian Satan

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    What ever happened to Margie Custer? Last we heard of her, Joe Steele was holding her hostage somewhere, but I don't remember if her fate has been revealed. Can we assume she's dead? Or will she make an appearance later on?
     
  16. Philosopher Jaden Smith Unknown member

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    Mar 6, 2019
    A couple pages ago, someone mentioned the idea of having the Neutrality Pact try to set up a “Second Cuban Republic” run by freed Infee slaves. While it’s unlikely to last long, I love the idea, and I was wondering as to who the Neutralists would choose as a leader.

    Whoever they are, they’d probably be chosen by the Neutrality Pact’s generals, since you can’t really hold elections when you’re in the middle of a guerilla war and 99% of the populace can’t read or write. The Hispanic generals would be most likely to pick someone who speaks Spanish, so they’d need to be at least partially Hispanic descent. To stick with the Madnessverse’s established tropes, they’d probably be someone who IRL led a revolution in an Infee country, such as Ireland. And of course, they’d need to have been born in the RU’s territory. If only there was someone who checked off all of these boxes...

    [​IMG]
    George de Valero, President of the Second Republic of Cuba and founder of the Cuban guerilla group “Soldiers of Destiny”
     
  17. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    Considering even Soviet mass culture didn't remain stuffy and Stalinist for that long, I don't think an eclectic group like the Illuminists would let that happen either. Getting rid of religion leaves behind a pretty massive cultural void, and I'm not sure if that can be filled solely with old Jacobin slogans or whatever-- so they would do well to accept all the help from they can get. The government may happily approve of cultural trends with origins outside itself, so long as they are not too self-destructive or critical of authority. So for groups that are somewhat out of place in a Christian society, now's the time to shine.

    A somewhat high-risk, high-reward experiment would be trying to repackage schismatic religious movements like the Old Believers as "spiritualists" like the ruling clique. It'd be like some weird echo of the Roman "Pax Deorum" policy of harmonizing all faiths with their own polytheism. Though in practice, I think the Old Believers/Doukhobors/other ascetic movements would reject this and try to isolate themselves from Illuminist society by building communes in rural Siberia (Canada is out of the picture, after all) and hoping the state is distracted by concerns in the cities.

    The Illuminists' generally libertine attitude (even if it comes at the expense of liberty) could actually let them outpace the Europans and be as experimental as the Americans-- hell, maybe the TTL version of Beatlemania comes out of the Illuminist sphere, in the form of waves of contraband discs and tapes ORRA confiscates eagerly (and then listens to on their off hours). And if some Russian glam-rock makes its way to Britain there'd be all the more opportunity for Clockwork Orange references :^)

    Here's some Russian rock music. The lead of this group, Viktor Tsoi, is of Korean descent (his surname is the same as the one that Korean-Americans romanize as Choi.)


    And, of course... a German band named for a Mongol Khan singing the praises of the Russian capital. If this is what Illuminist culture ends up looking like, Madnessverse could use a lot more of it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  18. Murica1776 Building an American Tomorrow

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    Damn, I love that idea, if for no other reason than we could also see this in Loomie land:


    Disco folk anthems performed by patriotic singers and dancers is what makes Illuminist Russia Best Russia!
     
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  19. Stretch The One Who Has Seen Too Much

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    I love this timeline, but oh boy is it very dense. Could I get a summary of the changes in say, a paragraph or two to try and wrap my head around how we've got here?
     
  20. Murica1776 Building an American Tomorrow

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    Jun 22, 2016
    Lemme take a crack at it:

    The United States never adopts the Constitution, and quickly falls apart after Washington dies thanks to some election shenanigans. The USA breaks up into the RUA, Maryland, Virginia, Vermont, Carolina, and Georgia. Then, Napoleon manages to bully the American successor states into fighting against Britain in the Napoleonic Wars. He wins, but only after a devastating invasion of the RU by the Canadians. The misery of the US falling apart and the Napoleonic War leaves the RU angry and revanchist. In comes the Prophet Aaron Burr, with his crazy visions of America as the New Jerusalem inhabited by Pinnacle Protestant Anglo-Saxons, Jews, and Africans stretching across the continent. The RU and the Southern nations expand West, like OTL. Carolina loses OTL Tennessee in an ill-advised war. The RU increasingly falls under the spell of Burr's AFC church, and treats those not WASP, Jewish, or African-American as slaves under the watch of tyrannical tycoon Charles Goodyear. Meanwhile, Britain falls apart in the aftermath of the Napoleonic War, even as France and its allies expand.

    In the 1850's, the RU falls to the Fascist Abraham Lincoln, who totally rewrites the Constitution, privileges the AFC, and helps the RU more fully embrace scientific and religious racism against Catholics, Irishmen, Slavs, Balkanites, Spaniards, Italians, Hispanics, etc. He allies with Carolina to eliminate Georgia, Maryland, and Virginia. Carolina reclaims its lost land, and the Union takes the rest. Lincoln dies shortly afterward, ushering in an era of weak leaders. Young war hero George Custer topples the government and makes the RU a de facto one party dictatorship (a path it was leaning towards already). He reforms the country, and leads it into a successful campaign of genocide against Mexico. He also builds the Panama Canal, founds Fascist boy scouts, invades Japan (and dubs the Japanese Jewish Betters), Hawaii, and other Pacific islands. Essentially, he builds the RU into a Fascist superpower. He then leads them into war against the Catholic French alongside the British, Aussies, Carolinians, Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians. By the end, the RU covers basically all of North America. He dies during the war (although that's kept secret) and is replaced by his adoptive son Joe Steele. Steele consolidates his authority over the Church, big business, and everyone in general. He is now preparing to invade Hispanic South America for Manifest Destiny.
     
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