"What Madness Is This?" Redux: The Union Forever

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Napoleon53, Sep 13, 2018.

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  1. Murica1776 Building an American Tomorrow

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    Jun 22, 2016
    As another note for the Cokies, aside from the practical reasons for CoCaro to remain independent, the story potential for it in the Oswald era is incredible. As I have remarked earlier, with the coming decadent "Super-Pinnacle-Future," and the Oswald Reforms and all their potential sexual insanity, the Cokies will decidedly not be on board. They're fundamentally reactionaries, not messianic totalitarians. Change don't sit well with em. Just imagine how nutty that could get if things like interracial polygamy happen. The Carolinas will have a collective, never-ending stroke, and I think it'll be absolutely hilarious.

    Also, since TTL has as one of its "themes" the idea of building a society where all the worst aspects of America are turbocharged, I would argue you need an aspect that highlights all the terrible things in the South. The RU is too fundamentally New England Yankee to really have that in there. Thus, the Cokies pick up the slack in that department, and become the evilest Southerners you ever have seen, sir. Hark the Sound!

    Also, I would like to join the chorus calling for at least one more culture update before we really get into the meat of the upcoming wars. Also, is the League of Nations still going to be a thing?
     
  2. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    Oct 30, 2014
    If the European fascists start facing a serious defeat, there could even be wholesale evacuation/deportation. Like if you're going to lose West Germania, might as well take as many of the people as you can and plant them where they're needed.

    I don't know if I want a culture update right now-- they're certainly welcome, but now that we've seen things like Cuba and a preview into the Catholic camp's fault lines I think I'd rather just proceed with whatever political things need to be set up still, whether it be the opening shots of the Panama Canal campaign or a final word on whether Italy aligns with Caesar or Pope. The culture update could then be a rounders team wondering what to do now that their star player's been drafted for the Colombian front, or something else showing how war might be cutting into the bread and circuses (if it does at all, might be there's well enough bread to go around) of the Booming 30s.
     
  3. Ameroboto Deep State Bad Hombre

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    By golly, I sure hope the RU does invade the Carolinas just to see a schism between the Fascists. :evilsmile:
     
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  4. Born in the USSA Well-Known Member

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    Nov 14, 2015
    Boooooo! Southern-fried Yugoslavian North Korea is best Carolina! I want them to survive just for the reactions against DiSC theory* and Sexual Marxism** and Pinnacle Production*** alone. The idea that rather than guns or drugs or liquor bootleggers will just be running porn and Yankee family planning literature over the border would be a lot of fun.

    *Kink/BDSM as pioneered by Comrade-Patriot William Moulton Marston
    **Race mixing to truly recreate the Pinnacle Line of Adam, as put forward by the latest scions of the illustrious Marx family, the Free World renowned Marx brothers.
    ***All sorts of weird family structures. I think that a book called "The Pinnacle Plateau" about how infees will eventually overwhelm the New Chosen by sheer numbers could turn a lot of people around to the idea, not unlike how the Rising Tide of Color fed into eugenics OTL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  5. MuricanTauri1776 Well-Known Member

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    Apr 17, 2016
    But mullattoes being Better is directly contradicted by TTL's Marxist Eugenicism, and if he's wrong about that, what about all those irish that got "vaccinated"...

    The RU is too far deep into the Betterness as set forth by Marx, verbatim. IMO it can't happen, unless you undo everything the RU stands for.
     
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  6. Darksider166 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 11, 2015
    I disagree, the presence of race-mixing among the betters wouldn't necessarily destroy the Republican Union. For the last century, the R.U. has been bullshitting and adding shit/improvising along the way over time. Look at Spiritual Marxism for instance. That was never codified into American Fundamentalist ideology during the first half-century of the country, only gaining popularity and becoming canonized once Abe Lincoln's wife endorsed it and became mainstream around the rise of Custer. The Japanese becoming pinnacle men are also another thing the R.U. just made up along the way.

    Scientific Marxism is certainly scientific-ideological dogma but the Americans in TTL have shown to be flexible with their ideology when it suits them. It's relatively easy once Steele is out of the picture around the 1950s that "Scientific Marxism has been updated with new recent discoveries" which are of course endorsed by the Oswald regime as Oswald is all about free love among the betters (I'd suspect if he does legalize race-mixing it's less because Oswald is just a good soul but just so if he's ever caught in one of his many affairs with say a black or japanese woman, it won't be as bad so it's self-preservation as well). They can still say Charles Marx was a guiding individual but was limited with the technology of his day much like new prophets come to spread new scripture, new science comes along to update pinnacle science.

    If anything, I can see it being decriminalized at first before full-on legalization and even when it's legal, it may not necessarily be "endorsed" or "promoted" which can be a convenient way in-universe to explain the lack of mixed-race individuals by the 21'st century.

    Then again, I may personally be biased in my opinion since i'm mulatto and so if blacks and whites can marry in the R.U./NUSA then it gives a higher chance for a Madness! counterpart of me to exist though i'm not sure that'd be a good thing.

    And besides, a fascistic regime allowing race-mixing would just be another subversion of classical fascistic regimes of the 20th century and show just how different the Madness-Verse is compared to our world.

    Anyways, sorry about all this rambling, I think i'll stop it right here before this gets any longer. I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily i'm just brainstorming a way it's possible.
     
  7. MuricanTauri1776 Well-Known Member

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    Apr 17, 2016
    It's one thing to add on, another to directly contradict something already added to AFC and held as high truth to the tune of tens of millions of dead irish and mexicans. The RU is already firmly committed by the Immolation and Cleansing Month. Oswald, however, probably won't care, but he may be unwilling to poke and bend racial marxism too much lest someone poke around his ancestry...

    Also, I wouldn't want to have a madness counterpart, especially considering what Oswald did to the American Blacks in 1.0... or the inevitable nuclear war or RU-victory purity spiral.
     
  8. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    Jul 28, 2017
    Honestly i can see the RU abandoning Germania to its destiny. Considering how badly the war against Gran Colombia and its allies is going, i doubt Steele will be able to help Kapp's regime. I imagine he will simply say that Germania's persecution of jews makes it unworthy of being a RU's ally rather than simply admitting he is unable to help one of his fascist allies however
     
  9. Perfidious Albion Well-Known Member

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    It seems pretty likely that they will face such a defeat. West Germania, being a tinpot fascist dictatorship, won't want to let Germany remain disunited; and East Germania is not going to let West Germania conquer it. And East Germania has a big friend.

    Russia is a country of absolutely enormous potential. In OTL, a powerful and united Germany, after successfully conquering most of the European continent, fought Russia. Russia had suffered under years of Stalin purging the best and brightest, wrecking the country's infrastructure and infusing it with paranoia, turning its army into a hollow shell deprived of its best commanders. In addition, Stalin, in possibly his stupidest of many stupid decisions, trusted Hitler not to invade; so, despite defectors frantically warning the Russians that the Germans were coming, Stalin ignored them, and thus the Germans attacked with total strategic surprise and made huge advances into Russian territory with incoherent opposition and destroyed much of the Russian air force on the ground. It's hard to exaggerate how cataclsymically badly Stalin's amazing combination of incompetence—blind paranoia towards his own men, and blind trust towards (of all people!) Adolf Hitler—sabotaged the Soviet Union's war effort; if not for Stalin, the USSR would be much better off. It was pretty much the best set-up for the war that Russia's enemy could possibly have in any universe. Those were circumstances so unbelievably contrived to make Russia likelier to lose that if any fiction/AH author came up with them, we'd hold our noses and laugh at them for years for such a ridiculous extreme piece of wankery.

    And yet even with all of that, Russia still won.

    Russia is the graveyard of empires. A reactionary, rural, tsarist wreck is unlikely to live up to that potential, but a united industrialised Russia in the modern age is extremely strong. In TTL, if the European fascists fight a war against the Illuminists, they'll lose. If the fascists and the Europan monarchists form some kind of grand right-wing alliance and they fight a war against the Illuminists with all the strength of Western Europe behind them…? Guess what. They'll still lose. It's difficult to exaggerate how bad an idea it is to fight a total war against Russia anywhere in Europe. (In East Asia it's rather different because (A) the Chinese have an even higher population than the Russians, and (B) most of the Russian population and industry are in European Russia and the flow of men and war materiel to Asian Russia is highly constricted by supply lines.) So if the fascists, the monarchists, the Supercatholics and the rest of Europe's factions want to beat each other up while leaving Russia and her allies undisturbed, that's one thing; but if they start poking the bear, they are going to really really REALLY regret it, when their armies are broken in the snows and then the tanks roll through Berlin, Rome, Paris, whichever Darwin-Awards dipshit was dumb enough to start a war they definitely can't win.
     
  10. Simeon La empresa crecerá más grande

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    Jan 19, 2015
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    Somewhere
    “As fah as ah know, wev’wend, a Pinn’cle man of realleh good fluidation lahk ah am can fahk ev’weh man ah’ve got. Ah’ve already slept with King’s wahfe, piteh on him, but suhe theh’ll still chant meh ALL HEHL! So if ah am you, you’d better relent and pleasuwe youwself too, befohe the kids get aneh funneh ahdeahs and staht camping in the Blahnd Gentleman’s headquahtehs.”

    “Sir, I still don’t see how it even remotely conne-“

    “Don’t get meh wong, thehe won’t be guns in the CoJ, but kids these dehs... will claim whateveh was foh them, obedehntly so, or otherwise. You’d not want be iwwelevant, eh? You would not want bricks inside the first church, would you? C’mon, you’ve made so much wev’lations it’s suweleh easeh foh you to mehke new one.”
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  11. Sunstone77 Well-Known Member

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    Jun 19, 2018
    I feel like I’m experiencing a stroke trying to read this
     
  12. Simeon La empresa crecerá más grande

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    It’s not as if you’d not get one from the less accented Americans with the stupid shits they believe in...

    Which lended me to another idea:

    ~~~NEWSFLASH!!!~~~

    Oswald pwoclaims the Ahll-Amewicahn English, to be used in ahll medah and fohmal settings fwom NOH ON.

    (as it was pronunciated by the radio announcer fearing for his life.)
     
  13. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    Jul 28, 2017
    I wonder if this TL's version of the Molotov Cocktails will be invented in South America
     
  14. John Spangler A man of wealth and taste

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    Nov 14, 2013
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    Somewhere in Southern Italy
    They already exist. They've been invented in Ireland, and are named Shamrock Shakes. They're mentioned in canon for the first time in CHAPTER 64.
     
  15. Sunstone77 Well-Known Member

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    Jun 19, 2018
    Beat me to it. Yeah, I suggested the name Shamrock Shakes waaaay back and Napo loved the idea, so he made it canon
     
  16. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  17. raffaele gaggioli Well-Known Member

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    Jul 28, 2017
    Yeah, i am sorry i forgot about it
     
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  18. Laserfish AKA Plasma-ckeral

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    Dec 25, 2018
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    Fountain Valley CA
    I'm going to use what I know so far of the Warhammer 40k lore to determine which faction is like the other. I may be inaccurate in some of them, but I'll try to make sure the comparisons make sense. The Imperium of Man: There are many key players of the Madness-verse that have many of the elements of the Imperium. First off, the RU is perhaps the most alike to it. Xenophobia taken past 11? Check. A militarized state where everything is for the survival and expansion of the state? Check. A populace so brainwashed it would make 1984 look like a coloring book? Check. An all-powerful church that's the lovechild of Minitrue, Miniluv, and the Vatican? Oh, so much checks for that. There are some key differences though. For one, if your a Better of course, you would have a pretty gosh-darn good life ahead of you in the RU, unlike the dumpster fire that is the Imperium of Man. Europa, the Rheinbund, and Austria-Hungary have aspects of this as well. I feel that the diverseness of Europa's colonial forces both before and after the Second Great War could reflect the diversity of units in the Imperial Guard, while the whole SuperCatholic and Pope Mussolini business in Europa and Austria-Hungary reflects the power of the religious hierarchy and such of the 40k universe. For the Chaos Forces, that would be the Beutalists, since they are anarchists with the whole "liberation through chaos" thing. The Orks could generally be just about everyone in the RU to an extent, although they could especially apply to Czar Viktor, with his bloodlust being just about near legendary (he did kill the messenger literally after all). The Tau would be the Illuminists, since their goals are just barely more justfied then the RU's Immolate all Inferiors campaign, the Europan and Austro-Hungarian's efforts to regain their power, and the Beutalists goal of total anarchy. While they are proponents of Enlightenment ideals, they really have taken it too far. That's all, what do you folk's think?
     
  19. Sunstone77 Well-Known Member

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    Jun 19, 2018
    I feel like Europa and the non-fascist monarchies are more in line with the Aeldari, once great empire almost destroyed by their own hubris and clinging to the glory days of old
     
  20. LostInNewDelhi Anarcho-Shaivist

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    Oct 30, 2014
    Originally I'd believed that the Eurofascists would organize a Pearl-Harbor on the Europans to draw the RU away from South America and into the Old World, only for the scheme to backfire horribly. Nap's since stated that the upcoming wars will remain mostly separate, so that's seeming less likely. The great trial the Eurofascists end up going through may be generational change, figuring out how to replace their Strong Man founders (Churchill will be very old come the 40s and 50s, and Kapp died of cancer in 1922 at age 63 OTL) with people who can also keep their states together and capably serve Oswald's future aims.

    To add to this, Russia's friends bring quite a bit to the table. Between them, East Germania and Poland make up most of the population/industry/resources/area of the former Nordreich, and, owing to the indigenous origins of their revolutions, they are allies and not puppets. So even before getting to Russia, an invader from the west will have to chew through states/armies/partisans who actually want to block those advances and have the resources to do it, all while buying Russia time to mobilize and send help. A Barbarossa-style surprise is completely impossible. I certainly wouldn't consider the Eurofascists a match for the Illuminists any way, but it really seems like even a united Catholic bloc would run into trouble. I don't think Napoleon I even had a Russian campaign TTL, Britain's self-destruction simply made it so a proper coalition would be impossible and Nap worked things out with the Tsar at the World Congresses. So as far as anyone TTL knows, the most recent example of an invasion of Russia is... the Great Northern War. Yikes. But there's still ways for a Catholic-Illuminist war to end in something other than an Illuminist win:

    1) Catholics win with the help of collaborators. It beggars belief, but somehow the Nazis were helped along by thousands of Soviet volunteers (a separate category from the POW-slaves) for their war efforts. And this continued as late as Vlasov's defection in 1944, even as the Nazis were whomped on every front. Why? Certainly few (if any) believed in the Nazi ideal for Russia-- but it seems they instead believed Germany could be used now and discarded later, or that it would be possible to give a right-wing Russia a place within a fascist continental order. Hypothetically, if the Germans had not aimed for Slavic genocide (even if it would contradict Lebensraum) and been more capable of taking advantage of anti-Stalin or anti-Soviet sentiment, at the very least these Russian SS units could have perhaps been quite a bit larger and more capable of independent action...

    Unfortunately, von Braunau hates Slavs near as much as OTL because of his experiences in the war against Viktor. Napoleon V may be able to restrain this tendency, but we still have no idea if he even regains meaningful supremacy over the Germans again. But if somehow they're able to present a united front and appeal to the submerged Russian right-wingers on the basis of restoring religiosity and the collaborative spirit of the World Congresses, they can at least leave behind a Second Russian Civil War even if they are forced to evacuate. Internal dissension, whether tarred with the "collaborationist" brush or not, is the biggest threat to Illuminist survival. Signing Brest-Litovsk never stopped the Bolsheviks from taking over Russia. And while the USSR was never successfully invaded OTL, it never needed to be.

    2) Catholics win/stalemate by opening up a secondary front. The Persians are probably the most useful short-term (can support Muslim revolts and make vast swathes of the Russian hinterland ungovernable, can force Russia to split its forces, can link up with Europa for a joint offensive on Stalingrad or something) but useless long term (the void opened up in Northeast Asia by a Russian collapse can't be filled by Persia, and presents a golden opportunity for RU expeditions out of Japan). The Chinese are still a smouldering wreck but at least hold the promise of being an effective block on RU ambitions in the East... someday. But I think opening up new fronts would ultimately be less helpful than it sounds: an alliance of Europa with a religious rival and/or with a country that feels itself to have been used by the Westerners and then left to Viktor's furies will never be the most sustainable of arrangements. Inevitably poor coordination (partly out of the massive distances involved, partly out of submerged hostility) in any permutation (EU-PR, EU-CN, EU-PR-CN, EU-RU) of anti-Russian alliance gives the Illuminists all the more latitude for action.

    Naturally, these both require various degrees of "rolling 20s" on the part of Paris. It may be that Russia, along with Brazil/South America generally, have important roles to play postwar as serial frustrations to the Big Two and as inspirations to the oppressed peoples of Africa and Asia.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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