What languages would be spoken in a non arabised, middle ages MENA?

Albert.Nik

Banned
Aramaic would exist in Levant as a large community language. Greek would be a majority language as well as an official language. Coptic would be a minority or a narrow majority language. Greek would reign in all the Greek settlements,settlers and the ones who'd intermarry. So a Byzantine Empire would see more settlements in good climate and logistic Levant after defeating the Persians and keeping them at a safe distance of course! If the Byzantine Empire fell,though unlikely,it would in this timeline be from the North in absense of Arab tsunami in the 7th century and would be perpetrated by Slavs or Germanic or maybe even Caucasian peoples who'd then insert in their settlements making Germanic or Slavic language the majority potentially. North Africa in most probability remain with Romance language derived from Vulgar Latin as that would be dominated by Germanic peoples as well if the Byzantium doesn't take them back.
 
There may also be European languages spoken. If this region is predominantly Christian, it won't be totally separate culturally from Europe as in OTL. A Christian North Africa would be a logical place for the Iberian kingdoms to expand for example.

I could imagine Greek becoming dominant in the Levant as well.
 

jocay

Banned
This is what you call an open-ended question. Without Islam uniting the Arab tribes and making them a cohesive force, Byzantium can weather any incursions by disunited Arab tribes and retain control of its MENA for a very long time, provided that they don't do anything to further alienate its non-Chalcedonian Christian subjects. In Egypt, if the Copts do not rebel and declare their independence from Byzantium, it seems likely that Coptic would share the same fate as IOTL, only it being marginalized by the Hellenized socio-political elite that has been influencing Egypt's affairs since Alexander the Great. Its rapid decline in use amongst the Copts within a few decades of the Caliphate is evidence of this. Cyrenaica itself would also remain a center of Hellenistic culture though desertification would lead to a gradual decline in population and perhaps migration to Egypt and the Exarchate.

Greek would be spoken mostly in the coastal areas and wherever there has been historic areas of Greek settlement (Antioch, Pentapolis) and be a prestige language everywhere else. But until the advent of public education to the masses, Aramaic is likely retained as the majority language for a long time, though albeit marginalized as the language of peasants and heretics. Mesopotamia remains predominately Aramaic-speaking though it isn't impossible for Arabs to migrate and take over Mesopotamia when the Sassanid Empire collapses. Tunisia and Tripolitania would be speaking Romance dialects predominately. Algeria and Morocco would have a situation analogous to Dalmatia - Romance coastal enclaves dominated by the Berber interior. Probably influenced by whatever political entities arise in Iberia, Italy and France. Punic probably lasts a while longer as its speakers wouldn't immediately switch to Arabic - it dies a gradual death.
 
Where's this XXI coming from?
Your post said "becoming dominant" so I pointed out Greek was already dominant at the time of the Arab expansion.

It wasn’t the native language there at that time (to my language) but a lingua franca. I think ITTL it might develop into a first language.
 
It wasn’t the native language there at that time (to my language) but a lingua franca. I think ITTL it might develop into a first language.
English is the lingua franca rather than the native language of India. Doesn't change English being dominant in India...
My previous posts also pointed out Greek being the language of administration for the region rather than a native one.
It could become a first language but there are hurdles to cross, one of which is Aramaic.
 
English is the lingua franca rather than the native language of India. Doesn't change English being dominant in India...
My previous posts also pointed out Greek being the language of administration for the region rather than a native one.
It could become a first language but there are hurdles to cross, one of which is Aramaic.

India was ruled by the UK for much less time than we are talking about here. This is a scenario in which Greek could potentially be the lingua franca of the east Mediterranean for two millennia. Things could go in a lot of directions over that time. One possibility is Greek becoming a first language in the Levant in a TL where it remains ruled or strongly influenced by Constantinople.
 
There may also be European languages spoken. If this region is predominantly Christian, it won't be totally separate culturally from Europe as in OTL. A Christian North Africa would be a logical place for the Iberian kingdoms to expand for example.

I could imagine Greek becoming dominant in the Levant as well.
What Iberian kingdoms? There's the Visigoths in Iberia who are indeed meddling in the closest parts of Mauretania, but they're in no shape to seriously expand there. Amazigh states would likely consolidate in North Africa and adopt Christianity (if they hadn't yet) and they are likely to be enough of a challenge for the Iberians in Late Antiquity. Actually they might easily raid southern Spain and depending on how the Visigoths fare, maybe conquer parts of it (they sort of did IOTL, in an uneasy "alliance" with the Arabs).
Greek probably won't dominate the Levant; Syriac was becoming an increasingly important written language and most people in the area natively spoke some relatively close form of Aramaic. Maybe Palestinian Christian Aramaic, which is not the same as Syriac, would turn out to be the dominant standard in Palestine, coastal Levant and wherever Melkite communities are stronger (Syriac being largely associated with non-Chalcedonian forms of Christianity, though this was not universal). There was a development of a scholarly curriculum in Syriac and many Greek works were being translated, both Pagan philosophy and Christian Fathers. Greek would obviously remain known and used but largely only in a written form, and not universally anyway.
Arabic was getting somewhat more important in the timeframe considered and it may prove a bigger contender to Aramaic than Greek, though absent Islam, this would likely happen at a much slower pace and won't see the major changes of OTL (which, however, also took time and did not fully replace it everywhere; as late as the thirteenth century, Syriac was a scholarly language for Christians in some areas, and of course Aramaic is still spoken, including by a small number of Muslims).
 
India was ruled by the UK for much less time than we are talking about here. This is a scenario in which Greek could potentially be the lingua franca of the east Mediterranean for two millennia. Things could go in a lot of directions over that time. One possibility is Greek becoming a first language in the Levant in a TL where it remains ruled or strongly influenced by Constantinople.

I disagree. Locals were developing their own Aramaic (and Arabic, it appears) literary and liturgical varieties, and Greek was less, not more, dominant in the written record in Late Antiquity relative to earlier times. There's a lot of local variation of course, but no evidence I know of that Greek had ever turned even anything close to being spoken by vast number of people in the area in the nine centuries it dominated it as a written standard, or that it was significantly spreading as such. Instead, we see it being challenged by an increasingly self-conscious effort by native intellectuals using Syriac, Palestinian Christian Aramaic, Old Arabic, and, elsewhere, Armenian and Coptic.
Not all of these efforts are bound to be successful long term (think Gothic as a counterexample) but I tend to believe that the ship for in-depth linguistic Hellenization of the region as a whole had already sailed by the sixth century.
 
I doubt Romance languages without foreign intervention will be the native language east of Algeria, due to punicisation.
In Late Antiquity?
It is not even fully clear that Punic was still spoken past the fifth century (though probably it was in some places), and it does not seem to have been written at this time. It does not look like Punic was expanding in this period. Obviously, there may be an ATL where political events push it to the forefront again, but this seems contrived. No OTL evidence I know of suggests "punicization" was ongoing at the expense of African Romance under the Vandals or the Byzantines.
 
In Late Antiquity?
It is not even fully clear that Punic was still spoken past the fifth century (though probably it was in some places), and it does not seem to have been written at this time. It does not look like Punic was expanding in this period. Obviously, there may be an ATL where political events push it to the forefront again, but this seems contrived. No OTL evidence I know of suggests "punicization" was ongoing at the expense of African Romance under the Vandals or the Byzantines.


I didn’t mean a rising punicisation during late antiquity. I mean that Punicisation in previous times had meant much of the population spoke neo Punic. I think conflict and tribal migration will mean indigenous language is limited to Berber or Punic influenced Berber languages, unless European or Asian powers intervene
 
but I tend to believe that the ship for in-depth linguistic Hellenization of the region as a whole had already sailed by the sixth century.
That's honestly a ridiculous idea, Arabic can replace Aramaic and Coptic in mere centuries but Greek of all languages can't?
 
Not as a significant language. Just in the sort of way that there are still some villages today that speak Aramaic.

There is no evidence it was spoken anywhere at the time. Of course, it remains possible that it happened and we simply don't know, just like Western Neo-Aramaic o Modern Southern Arabian are entirely invisible in Medieval written record.
 
Top