What is better for Taoism, Chu victory in Warring States or Yellow Turbans

[SOSHaruhi101]

Trying to write a TL where Taoism is the dominant philosophy over Confucianism and Legalism, but not sure whether to use a Chu unification as that basis or a successful Yellow Turbans, as I’ve seen both suggested as ‘solutions’ to this question.

Thanks btw

 

[Avrorrange]

Political taoism and religious taoism are two different things.Nevertheless, they were dominant in early Western Han Dynasty.What was nevertheless shown in it’s decline however was that you need a less powerful monarchy for it to continually thrive. So Chu unification could be better,since they were feudal.

 

[Aluma]

ASB solution:

Yellow Turbans ISOT to the Warring States, leading to them allying with the Chu who proceeds to unify China

A Yellow Chu if you will~

As for the best Non-ASB solution:

I think the Yellow Turbans winning is a pretty awesome way of "restoring" Taoism to it's place in the Sun, the whole underdog rebellion aspect of it makes it much cooler than the Chu winning(which was already the most likely scenario, they were the largest and most powerful state) providing much more narrative potential to explore as well as the fact we know more about that time period than the warring states, making it easier to research and develope

So I'd say it makes for a better story

Now if you want the best case scenario for Taoism I think going with the Chu Victory is the better option
With that you avoid the whole devastation brought by the Qin's Legalism, expansion of the state's control over chinese society and centralization on a sole ruler
By the time the Yellow Turbans happened all of these things had happened and Confucionism was very entrenched

With the Chu winning you'd butterfly away all of that, having social structures dictated by the Chu & it's taoist philosophy who'd end up as entrenched as Confucionism IOTL as THE ideology of the chinese state & society

Besides how else could you call the Middle Kingdom Chuna?

 

[Tosa Inu]

Chu victory over Han of course. During the Chu-Han contention after the fall of Qin.

The POD could be as simple as Liu Bang meeting his gay lover Ji Ru, or an equivalent, somewhere earlier. It was said that after meeting Ji Ru, Liu Bang neglected most of his governing duties. As such, Liu Bang coming out as Bi earlier before the Chu being defeated might distracted him enough to put a defeat in already close match.

 

[Aluma]

Chu victory over Han of course. During the Chu-Han contention after the fall of Qin.

The POD could be as simple as Liu Bang meeting his gay lover Ji Ru, or an equivalent, somewhere earlier. It was said that after meeting Ji Ru, Liu Bang neglected most of his governing duties. As such, Liu Bang coming out as Bi earlier before the Chu being defeated might distracted him enough to put a defeat in already close match.

Ah nothing like being defeated by bissexuality

 

[Tosa Inu]

Ah nothing like being defeated by bissexuality

Nah, more like getting so enthralled with your lover, you gave them all your attention and readily gave them everything they've wanted, they basically ruined your performance as a ruler.

Strangely enough, having Homosexual relationship in Ancient China is actually fine, as long as they keep being a focused and good ruler, and don't neglect their duty of getting more children with female Concubines in the Harem.

The Problem is essentially Gender-Neutral, many Chinese Emperors have Lovers who caused them ruin, be it female or male, in case of Liu Bang. Liu Bang in particular, was said to prefer sleeping on Ji Ru's lap and playing his banana, as well as giving Ji Ru high titles where he is neither competent nor able to pick competent underlings to delegate his duties, while it's said he has no inclination to do that before Ji Ru.

If Ji Ru was replaced with an equally seductive female to Liu Bang, that he spent all his day sleepi6in her lap and playing her kitten, it would be the same condemnation from the Confucian Scholars.

 

[Aluma]

It was a joke! Im queer myself
But yeah dont neglect your duties just because your partner is hot lol

 

[Tosa Inu]

It was a joke! Im queer myself
But yeah dont neglect your duties just because your partner is hot lol

It was a very recurring theme in Chinese History, of Kings and later Emperors led away by a Lover that they becoming incompetent tyrants.

Starting with Daji, concubine to the last King of Shang who turned the King into giving her Cannibalistic Banquets, up to the Empress Dowager Cixi who ruined the Qing Dynasty, those are mostly females, but the most relevant one for this thread, the Chu-Han Contention, is a guy, it's only that he comes late after Han dynasty was already establised that he didn't do fatal damage to the dynasty. Being quickly stripped of his titles and executed by Liu Ying, the next Emperor of Han definitely helped too

 

[Aluma]

Being quickly stripped of his titles and executed by Liu Ying, the next Emperor of Han definitely helped too

"You fucked my father, so Im gonna fuck you!"
"Really??"
"Yes"
*Kills him*

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

An unorthodox idea: stick with the Qin.

Legalist ideology was heavily influenced by Taoist philosophy (eg. wu wei). But unlike Confucianism, Legalism doesn't really have any commentary on metaphysics or social morality, so it's not going to be in conflict with Taoism over these things like Confucianism was.

When the Qin fell, the succeeding dynasties inherited Qin laws but distanced themselves from official Legalism as an ideology, which left the door open for Confucianism to eventually become the official ideology. The bulk of Qin laws** would not be radically revised until the Kaihuang Code (developed by Emperor Wen of Sui, a political Legalist and anti-Confucian), and Confucian ideology wouldn't become the basis for law until the Tang Code. Legalism went from an official ideology to the unspoken framework for law, and eventually to just a substrate in Confucian law, while Taoism was viewed with contempt by the political elite because its spiritual tenets were seen as politically subversive and antithetical to Confucian values.
If Legalism remains the official ideology, it would likely do the same thing to Confucianism.

So you could easily have Legalism be China's official ideology, but Taoism be its state religion.


** Indeed, even Qin laws' brutality is vastly overstated.(1,2) They were standard fare for the Warring States era.

(1) https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9780824852351-030/pdf
(2) https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/...3469/4.2-Laws-2010.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

 

[Avrorrange]

Chu victory over Han of course. During the Chu-Han contention after the fall of Qin.

The POD could be as simple as Liu Bang meeting his gay lover Ji Ru, or an equivalent, somewhere earlier. It was said that after meeting Ji Ru, Liu Bang neglected most of his governing duties. As such, Liu Bang coming out as Bi earlier before the Chu being defeated might distracted him enough to put a defeat in already close match.

That is a totally different Chu.

 

[Tosa Inu]

That is a totally different Chu.

The Han did cemented Confucianism as The Official State Philosophy, so...

 

[Avrorrange]

The Han did cemented Confucianism as The Official State Philosophy, so...

The Han Dynasty under Liu Bang till his great-grandson was a weird hybrid that combined aspects of both legalism and Taoism.Liu Bang himself hated the Confucians and at one point pissed into the hat of a Confucian scholar when the latter tried to preach to him.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Isn’t Taoism’s loosely-gooses just let natural things be ethos in contradiction with Legalism’s? Or I guess maybe you can have a Legalistic Taoist who creates laws that mandate that things must naturally take their course?

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

Isn’t Taoism’s loosely-gooses just let natural things be ethos in contradiction with Legalism’s? Or I guess maybe you can have a Legalistic Taoist who creates laws that mandate that things must naturally take their course?

Below is a link to an example of a Taoist spiritual concept that was translated into a political concept by Legalists, with multiple illuminating quotes from Shen Buhai, Shen Dao and Han Fei. Which group first came up with the idea is unclear, but by the time of Qin Shi Huangdi, the concept had clearly been bandied back and forth until Taoists, Confucians and Legalists had it in their lexicon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei#Non-action_by_the_ruler

Edit: In Legalism, an ideology concerned purely with administrative matters, it represented the ruler letting his ministers do stuff around him and him intervening only when required, because less political involvement on his part = less leverage for ministers over the ruler. In Taoism, this idea is "go with the flow" and purely spiritual.

 

[Blair]

How would one show themself to be a good Taoist in the time of the Chu? For instance, were the common people expected to be vegetarian, or was that just for the monks?

 

[Aluma]

** Indeed, even Qin laws' brutality is vastly overstated.(1,2) They were standard fare for the Warring States era

I think they are seen as that bad because the Qin was the conclusion of the Warring States era and embodied many of the things that made that period infamous even if for them that was just sticking with the standard