What is a common thing or trope that always seem to happen?

[holycookie]

being a foreigner in TTL England probably isn't very nice.
-French historiography in that TL probably.

Where does this leave France because the country was at least 100 years in war with the British. This delayed France's advance into Europe at a time when France alone accounted for more than a quarter of the European population. Spain was able to compete with France due to having gold and silver in gigantic quantities and even so they were difficult wars. What country can to stop a French expansion in the 13th or 14th century, or in that era does not have in that period a power that can compete.

 

[holycookie]

And if it rises into something akin to the OTL British Empire it could be a much greater scourge against the world by having slavery still deeply entrenched into english society
Good way to get a dystopia

that would be depressing

 

[Viking25]

Japan. The people have never risen up against the living god emperor. WWII left the emperor in place, and he agreed to modern reforms.

After he got two of his cities nuked and had the country occupied by the Americans. Definitely not what I would call "willingly". I'll give you Germany but the Kaiser was may I remind you not responsible to any legislature and could appoint his chancellor at will. Doesn't really sound much like any Constitutional Monarch I've ever heard off

Where does this leave France because the country was at least 100 years in war with the British. This delayed France's advance into Europe at a time when France alone accounted for more than a quarter of the European population. Spain was able to compete with France due to having gold and silver in gigantic quantities and even so they were difficult wars. What country can to stop a French expansion in the 14th century, or in that era does not have in that period a power that can compete.

Perhaps a Hohenstaufen led Holy Roman Empire? Of course they really haven't gotten up to much by the start of the POD but due to butterflies Henry IV is able to enforce his supremacy over the Pope and prevent the investiture controversy spiralling out of control leading to a more centralised and stable HRE, which can probably check France for the moment at least

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

Japan.

There is a thread for that.

In which case.......Well considering in the comparatively more outward looking England, Jews were banned from stepping foot their till the 1600s. So yeah.....being a foreigner in TTL England probably isn't very nice.

Eh... until the Norman Conquest, you mean? They came with William in some numbers.(1) They were expelled around 200 years later. Funnily enough, the ban was lifted by the Puritan Oliver Cromwell, at a time when the whole Norman Yoke idea was in vogue politically and the Puritans were some of its main proponents.

(1)

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

Insular xenophobic island nation faced with a large continental hegemon across a narrow channel?

China-Japan: European Edition, here we go!

 

[Belisarius II]

England was already noted for being very insular and xenophobic(One Ambassador from Venice actually commented on it IIRC) so that won't be anything new per say, but I agree that the Norman conquest probably does result in England having far less ties to the continent and being far more inward looking. In which case.......Well considering in the comparatively more outward looking England, Jews were banned from stepping foot their till the 1600s. So yeah.....being a foreigner in TTL England probably isn't very nice.

The Norman Conquest didn't make England more xenophobic, it tied it closer to the continent. Being an island does have the effect of some isolation, but common people in Europe in the Medieval Period didn't travel much anyway. England always had thriving trade with the Continent, that many people were dependent on. After 1453 England became less involved on the Continent, and more focused on maritime affairs, which again makes sense being an island nation.

Banning Jews was nothing unique to England. Other countries carried out Pogroms on a regular basis. In some countries half of the Jews were murdered during the Black Death. Violence against Jews would explode whenever a Crusade was preached. If you can't fight the Muslims serve God by killing the infidel Jews at home. What Spain did to the Jews after 1492 was even more extreme, and long lasting than what happened in England.

"After the sainted and blessed king Edward died. He due to his upbringing in glorious Francia intrusted his cousin William the Based with rule over E*gland. William tried his hardest to civilise the E*nglish. They however revolted against for the grave sin of not eating food that didn't taste like shit, speaking a normal language without 50 vowels, and most of all not allowing them to sell other human beings like chattel as is every true E*glishmens right. William soon left his new Kingdom in disgust, and the E*glish crowned a upstart named Harold Godwinson instead. "
-French historiography in that TL probably.

 

[holycookie]

Perhaps a Hohenstaufen led Holy Roman Empire? Of course they really haven't gotten up to much by the start of the POD but due to butterflies Henry IV is able to enforce his supremacy over the Pope and prevent the investiture controversy spiralling out of control leading to a more centralised and stable HRE, which can probably check France for the moment at least

Well, who would win in this case, I don't know, but it's going to be a series of very violent wars because even a more centralized region doesn't have the population of France. And then we have other factors like internal elections for emperor. But I think this is the only way to hold back French expansion and even so, France will be bigger than OTL in the long term.
I think that's why most TL don't have France having a good colony in the Americas, the country itself was already a monster. If you give, for example, otl Portuguese colony (brazil) the country has the same amount of gold that Spain had in otl (it is a little more than Spain in otl) if you give the 13 colonials you have a turbocharged usa (in this case from brazil you are also a turbocharged brazil )

 

[holycookie]

Insular xenophobic island nation faced with a large continental hegemon across a narrow channel?

China-Japan: European Edition, here we go!

there's a reason why japan called great britain a sister island

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

there's a reason why japan called great britain a sister island

I've always thought that if the Qing had gotten their shit together in the early/mid 19th century and actually dealt with Japan from a position of strength, this comparison would be taken in Britain as an example of what could happen to them if France/Germany/etc became hegemon of Europe.

Sister island, indeed!

 

[Viking25]

Eh... until the Norman Conquest, you mean? They came with William in some numbers.(1) They were expelled around 200 years later. Funnily enough, the ban was lifted by the Puritan Oliver Cromwell, at a time when the whole Norman Yoke idea was in vogue politically and the Puritans were some of its main proponents.

I was talking about England after the conquest. TBF Cromwell apparently did it because of some obscure prophecy he heard and less out of any actual religious tolerance.

And then we have other factors like internal elections for emperor.

That wasn't a thing yet. The Empire was pretty throughly hereditary and in the hands of the Salian dynasty for most of the early Middle Ages. Elections for Emperor are actually pretty ancharanostic in this time period as they only started doing so in the 13th century so thats not a factor here unless the Salians really fuck up. France in contrast did actually have an in theory elective monarchy. Hugh Capet was elected to the throne by his fellow peers, Here's what one of his supporters said in support of his candidacy

Crown the Duke. He is most illustrious by his exploits, his nobility, his forces. The throne is not acquired by hereditary right; no one should be raised to it unless distinguished not only for nobility of birth, but for the goodness of his soul.[21]

Of course this was never really mattered much due to the Capets getting around it by naming crowning the next heir as Co King in his fathers lifetime. But the major dukes of France(Aquitaine and Normandy along with some others) did reserve the theoritcal right to elect somebody else to be there King if need be.

Banning Jews was nothing unique to England. Other countries carried out Pogroms on a regular basis. In some countries half of the Jews were murdered during the Black Death. Violence against Jews would explode whenever a Crusade was preached. If you can't fight the Muslims serve God by killing the infidel Jews at home. What Spain did to the Jews after 1492 was even more extreme, and long lasting than what happened in England.

I mean for context, France had a similar ban and allowed the Jews to come back in the reign of the next King. Also what the hell does Spain have to do with this?

The Norman Conquest didn't make England more xenophobic, it tied it closer to the continent. Being an island does have the effect of some isolation, but common people in Europe in the Medieval Period didn't travel much anyway. England always had thriving trade with the Continent, that many people were dependent on. After 1453 England became less involved on the Continent, and more focused on maritime affairs, which again makes sense being an island nation.

Where did you get that idea? I was commenting on how England which was already pretty xenophobic and insular would be in a TL where its even less connected from the continent. In fact thats pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say. Also by "less involved on the continent" you mean invading France multiple times, intervening in the Dutch revolt for Independence and only setting up their first colony in 1607?

 

[Belisarius II]

Taft The America's Screwer

This trope refers when Robert Taft (the one of 1940's) becomes President. Usually because a pollitical carambol happens ending with Taft in the White House. (Because no one would vote voluntarly and freely for that idiot, right?)

The thing is, Taft becomes President and IMMEDIATELY starts to make only fractal-level stupid decisions in a way that makes him look like he is doing it on purpose. Without the slightest consistency with his real political positions.

Like, get Taft to ally the United States with Nazi Germany while forgetting that he was an isolationist. Or suddenly deciding that the Morgenthau Plan is a great idea just to justify him later kicking Taft out of the Presidency for "weakening the West."

The outcome of this is Taft to completely tear the country apart and screw it up for the next six decades at least. Also, Taft becomes so deeply hated that you can present a Tojo-Stalin ticket as designated rivals... and Taft will still lose to them.

Thanks, that was really funny.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

I was talking about England after the conquest. TBF Cromwell apparently did it because of some obscure prophecy he heard and less out of any actual religious tolerance.

So, Cromwell is Rhaegar?

I mean for context, France had a similar ban and allowed the Jews to come back in the reign of the next King. Also what the hell does Spain have to do with this?

Nothing but forever is good pointing other and say "hey look at this guy, he's worse than me, that makes me good"

Where did you get that idea? I was commenting on how England which was already pretty xenophobic and insular would be in a TL where its even less connected from the continent. In fact thats pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say. Also by "less involved on the continent" you mean invading France multiple times, intervening in the Dutch revolt for Independence and only setting up their first colony in 1607?

"If England does it, it's very good, but if the others do it, it's very bad" is the operating principle here. I remember how someone tried to use the balance of power theory to argue that England could spend decades attacking Spain and every other country on the Continent, and that was good and just and necessary, but Spain was unspeakably evil for trying to invade England in response. (even if they failed).

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Thanks, that was really funny.

What reason makes you thinking is funny? There are many reasons.

 

[Belisarius II]

So, Cromwell is Rhaegar?


Nothing but forever is good pointing other and say "hey look at this guy, he's worse than me, that makes me good"


"If England does it, it's very good, but if the others do it, it's very bad" is the operating principle here. I remember how someone tried to use the balance of power theory to argue that England could spend decades attacking Spain and every other country on the Continent, and that was good and just and necessary, but Spain was unspeakably evil for trying to invade England in response. (even if they failed).

From the point of view of England those policies were very good. It's hard to imagine from an English point of view that a Spanish conquest, and imposition of the Inquisition would be good for them. All the nations in Europe have attacked each other at one time or another so, what is your point? That the English don't see themselves as villains seems hardly strange. Spain wasn't an innocent victim of English aggression in the 16th & 17th Centuries. During the reigns of Charles V & Phillip II Spain was fighting for European hegemony, is it any wonder that England, France, and other powers were resisting?

The Reformation strengthened the monarchies of Europe and helped create the modern Nation State. The Catholic Nations benefited from the Counter Reformation as well. England being conquered by Spain would've set the development of the country back by generations.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

From the point of view of England those policies were very good. It's hard to imagine from an English point of view that a Spanish conquest, and imposition of the Inquisition would be good for them. All the nations in Europe have attacked each other at one time or another so, what is your point? That the English don't see themselves as villains seems hardly strange. Spain wasn't an innocent victim of English aggression in the 16th & 17th Centuries. During the reigns of Charles V & Phillip II Spain was fighting for European hegemony, is it any wonder that England, France, and other powers were resisting?

The Reformation strengthened the monarchies of Europe and helped create the modern Nation State. The Catholic Nations benefited from the Counter Reformation as well. England being conquered by Spain would've set the development of the country back by generations.

It's funny that you say that when England already had its own Inquisition, so at most it could happen that the leadership is changed and they go on to persecute Protestants, but that would be all the change.

As for the "fight for European hegemony" this sounds more like a projection of British paranoia about the hypothetical European hegemony, even if we consider that it is true that the countries of Europe were constantly fighting for reasons that today we would consider stupid.

What I find extremely dubious is that Manichean framing of the conflict "the good non-Spanish powers against the evil Spain that wants to end it all" when a more realistic description would be "everyone wanted to be the one on top and they were fighting for it".

I would like you to please expand your argument about how exactly the Protestant Reformation benefited other countries. Especially if we consider that the centralization of power was already a trend even before the Reform (so it cannot be said that there is a direct correlation between the two).

Unless, of course, it is considered to be beneficial in some way to plunge virtually all of Europe into bloody civil conflicts, which completely destroyed the local economy* and degenerated into a thirty-year war whose casus belli can be summed up as "WE WENT TO KILL THEM ALL WHO DOES NOT PRAYS LIKE US".

In particular the idea that "Spain conquering England would have forced her back for generations" sounds more like a black legend than anything based on facts, because nobody wrote in stone that OTL was "destined to happen".

*I quote the economics only because many people seem to believe that it is the only relevant factor worth considering.

 

[Aluma]

Im particularly skeptical of the counter-reformation being beneficial in any way when all it did was ramp up persecution and orthodoxy to a level never seen before in order to counter the reformation, if anything it made the catholic world worse

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Im particularly skeptical of the counter-reformation being beneficial in any way when all it did was ramp up persecution and orthodoxy to a level never seen before in order to counter the reformation, if anything it made the catholic world worse

Especially if we consider that they consolidated and imitated the Protestant trend of "we are going to impose our orthodoxy by force of arms" which is one of the reasons why the situation degenerated until it ended in the Thirty Years' War. I'm not as sure there's as direct a relationship between religious persecution and technological suppression in this case as too many people seem to believe but it certainly didn't end well even if the claim that it prevented more religious civil wars (by suppressing aggressively to any suspected heresy)

 

[Viking25]

So, Cromwell is Rhaegar?

And now I understand why everyone hates him so much!

Im particularly skeptical of the counter-reformation being beneficial in any way when all it did was ramp up persecution and orthodoxy to a level never seen before in order to counter the reformation, if anything it made the catholic world worse

I heard it resulted in some good paintings at least.

In particular the idea that "Spain conquering England would have forced her back for generations" sounds more like a black legend than anything based on facts, because nobody wrote in stone that OTL was "destined to happen".

Keep in mind the Spanish were led by the H*psburgs thus any action England took against them was 100% justified /s

Nothing but forever is good pointing other and say "hey look at this guy, he's worse than me, that makes me good"

Though of course Medieval Europes treatment of Jews in general was pretty shit, For instance Jews were legally required to wear stars of davids so their identity could be known at a glance so the English while extreme weren't particularly special in the grander scheme of things. Scotland weirdly I think is the only European state without any history of Government sponsored Anti Semetism(Don't quote me on that though). Yet another reason for why the Scots are based and the English are cringe.

As for the "fight for European hegemony" this sounds more like a projection of British paranoia about the hypothetical European hegemony, even if we consider that it is true that the countries of Europe were constantly fighting for reasons that today we would consider stupid.

Spanish Empire=EU apparently.

Spain wasn't an innocent victim of English aggression in the 16th & 17th Centuries. During the reigns of Charles V & Phillip II Spain was fighting for European hegemony, is it any wonder that England, France, and other powers were resisting?

Funnily enough Elizabeth and Phillip were allies briefly against the French, in order to stop her cousin Mary Queen of Scots who was married to the French Dauphin ascending the English throne, and her successor James was a noted Spanophile. European politics was a tangled web of competing interests and political manuevering with Alliances rapidly shifting and changing. Not "Massive Spanish Empire of evil and tyranny takes on all the Free peace loving nations of Europe" conflict like your making it out to be.

 

[The Anglo-Dutch Union]

And if it rises into something akin to the OTL British Empire it could be a much greater scourge against the world by having slavery still deeply entrenched into english society
Good way to get a dystopia

As far as I’m aware anglo-saxon slavery was on the level of Scandinavian societies, so ya know they’re slavery societies but not dystopian

 

[Mitridates the Great]

As far as I’m aware anglo-saxon slavery was on the level of Scandinavian societies, so ya know they’re slavery societies but not dystopian

In this case we should hope they don't decide later to adopt the CSAS model of slavery.