What is a common thing or trope that always seem to happen?

[Aghasverov]

The Norman Yoke as a whole seems to be a pretty popular on this site as a way of looking at English History before the hundreds year war, and while at least a bit of it is valid it can get a bit overwrought at times. No I am not going to deny that William the Conqueror was a brutal asshole, and did a whole lot of shit that fucked over England in the long run(Though TBH my only regret is that he didn't annex the place into France), the idea of England being ruled over by a bunch of French Noblemen from their estates on the continent who couldn't speak a lick of English for the better part of the Middle Ages isn't actually all that true(Once heard somebody describe it as colonisation.....). While the Kings of the house of Normandy and the first two Plantagenets fit this stereotype well(Though by Henry I, the King was King of England first and duke of Normandy second), all the kings after don't really.

Richard the Lionheart the last king to actually spend all his time in his continental possessions knew at least enough English to compose poetry in the language(To me anyway its sounds fishy he would bother writing a poem in a language he couldn't even speak but hey what do I know), his brother John was the first Plantagent King that we can confirm spoke English(IIRC one of the complaints John brought against his brothers chancellor William Longchamp was that he couldn't speak English), and after him the Plantagenets spent like their entire reigns in England proper.

Edward I only visited Gascony the last English possession in France like once or twice throughout his entire reign with him spending the vast majority of his reign focused on British affairs. He also tried to garner support for his war against King Phillip IV of France by arguing to Parliament that it would harm the English language, Now while this didn't actually work that well. It is important because it proves that not only were members of Parliament an extremely privileged class expected to know how to speak English, but the King himself thought(Wrongly or not) that people cared enough about it to support a war against the Kingdom for the sake of it. This argument was also brought up again in the Hundred Year's war during the reign of his grandson Edward III so clearly Edward himself wasn't a one off.

While yes the Kings of England did usually speak French as a first language(The French were still considered foreigners though, even those from Gascony. In contrast according to sources by the 12th century the Norman settlers and Anglo Saxons had become basically indistingushable ) during this period, they were most often born in England, lived their and ruled over their possessions in France and Ireland from English Soil. If this was colonisation then the Normans clearly weren't very good at it.

Oh God, the Norman Yoke... are you familiar with the postings of Eadmund?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/edmunds.484545/

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/norman-yoke-theory-the-last-hope-for-the-english-left.502074/

 

[Viking25]

Oh God, the Norman Yoke... are you familiar with the postings of Eadmund?

Nope, but I guess I do understand why its popular. I mean what self respeciting Englishmen could turn down an excuse to blame the French for all of Englands problems?

 

[Aghasverov]

Nope, but I guess I do understand why its popular. I mean what self respeciting Englishmen could turn down an excuse to blame the French for all of Englands problems?

Heh, yeah... This guy took it further than most though...
I mean, I can understand holding a grudge, but almost 1000 years is an awfully long time... especially after 10 centuries of intermarriage has made you basically indistinguishable from those you are holding the grudge against

 

[Viking25]

Heh, yeah... This guy took it further than most though...
I mean, I can understand holding a grudge, but almost 1000 years is an awfully long time... especially after 10 centuries of intermarriage has made you basically indistinguishable from those you are holding the grudge against

Not like they are alone in that. Greece is still crying over the sack of Constantinople.

 

[Viking25]

All jokes aside I can't bring myself to understand why people like the Anglo Saxons so much. Like yeah whatever they weren't Fr*nch and that's all well and good, but I just don't get the appeal. I mean come on actual blood money was the bedrock of their society, they did plenty of vile shit off their own; If Williams harrying of the north was a genocide than so was the Saint Brices day massacre. I mean here's what King Ethelred himself had to say about it.

For it is fully agreed that to all dwelling in this country it will be well known that, since a decree was sent out by me with the counsel of my leading men and magnates, to the effect that all the Danes who had sprung up in this island, sprouting like cockle amongst the wheat, were to be destroyed by a most just extermination, and thus this decree was to be put into effect even as far as death, those Danes who dwelt in the afore-mentioned town, striving to escape death, entered this sanctuary of Christ, having broken by force the doors and bolts, and resolved to make refuge and defence for themselves therein against the people of the town and the suburbs; but when all the people in pursuit strove, forced by necessity, to drive them out, and could not, they set fire to the planks and burnt, as it seems, this church with its ornaments and its books. Afterwards, with God's aid, it was renewed by me.[9]

This along with all the weird racial theories associated with them.....Yeah honestly if you want a pre Norman British power who fought against foreign invaders to simp over than the native Irish are right their with absolutely no cringe genocide, racism or conspiracy theories. Brian Boru>Harold Godwinson.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

absolutely no cringe genocide, racism or conspiracy theories

I think that's part of the appeal honestly /s

 

[Mitridates the Great]

This is going sound odd but ''non predatory predators'' seems to be a thing for great powers if world war 1 is averted. I know this site has a lot has of opinions regarding the affects of the world wars and how they affected how conquest for the sake of conquest was seen.

However one weird thing is if world war 1 is averted or at least minimized then the glory hungry, conquest yearning, imperialist states seem to accept their place in the sun and no longer continue pushing they've been doing for centuries.

For example in Europe we have Austria which recently annexed Bosnia, was following a decades long plan of making all the Slav's surrounding them clients at best if not future subjects and in a proxy war with Russia using Polish rebels. You have Greece in a arms race with the Ottomans, fighting Bulgarian insurgents and preparing for another war while feuding with Italy.

No say war scares, mobilizations, economic conflicts that was apart of life pre world war was apart of European life.

It's sorta having the cake and eating it in a world where war for the sake of national gain and honor is expected if not encourage part of the order it and weirdly ends up if anything more peaceful than ever before for some reason.

I think this is because it is assumed that governments will be so horrified by the wear and tear of even a small-scale war that they will decide they are not going to expose themselves to something like that again. Recently, moreover, meaningless rants have been added about obscure macroeconomic concepts that nobody cared about at the time.

Of course, this requires ignoring that, faced with exactly that kind of situation, ALL political and military leaders chose to ESCALATE, not try to negotiate an end to hostilities.

 

[holycookie]

All jokes aside I can't bring myself to understand why people like the Anglo Saxons so much. Like yeah whatever they weren't Fr*nch and that's all well and good,

maybe hadrada conquers england?
This will make England have a focus on Scandinavia, in addition to making the English language more Germanic with a lot more Danish. This has consequences with France reorganizing earlier without England to get in the way. But it would probably make England kind of see itself as a Scandinavian country and ignoring the continent quite a bit.

 

[Viking25]

maybe hadrada conquers england?
This will make England have a focus on Scandinavia, in addition to making the English language more Germanic with a lot more Danish. This has consequences with France reorganizing earlier without England to get in the way. But it would probably make England kind of see itself as a Scandinavian country and ignoring the continent quite a bit.

I mean......I've seen this idea brought up a lot but honestly I can't see English culture being subsumed so completely into Scandinavian culture. Certainly influence and mold the culture, but to the point they actually consider themselves part of Scandinavia? For instance modern Englishmen certainly don't consider themselves French for instance as a completely random example.

 

[holycookie]

I mean......I've seen this idea brought up a lot but honestly I can't see English culture being subsumed so completely into Scandinavian culture. Certainly influence and mold the culture, but to the point they actually consider themselves part of Scandinavia?

well considering that hadrada was a Knut wanna be, after the conquest of england the norwegian king would probably invade denmark. With the manpower of england i think it is likely that hadrada will conquer denmark (before that probably hadrada will conquer the scottish isles). The English ruling classes were already half Dane (Scandinavian), before the Norman conquest of England the nation was being pulled for centuries into Scandinavia being virtually part of Scandinavia in economy, language and culture with centuries of colonization by the Vikings. It would be just another Scandinavian king conquering England. What happened at OTL was that the Normans pulled England towards a much more Latin (French) and continental culture (with the wars for the crown of France). This England would be more insular with a focus on Scandinavian countries, especially Denmark (more culturally similar). Probably hadrada and the heir to this empire (three kingdoms england, norway and denmark) probably tried to recreate the viking kingdom in ireland, perhaps conquer scotland in addition to probably interfering in the baltic.

For instance modern Englishmen certainly don't consider themselves French for instance as a completely random example.

Scandinavia is a geographical and historical region of Northern Europe and encompasses, in the strictest sense, Denmark, Sweden and Norway. In a broader sense, the term can also cover Finland, the Faroe Islands and Iceland. In this case, England will also count, which will have a great Scandinavian influence.
I think the comparison is not very good due to the fact that unlike France which is a culture of a single nation, Scandinavian culture is related to a set of countries that have a great historical interest (As well as Iberian culture, the balkans culture among others )

 

[Viking25]

Scandinavia is a geographical and historical region of Northern Europe and encompasses, in the strictest sense, Denmark, Sweden and Norway. In a broader sense, the term can also cover Finland, the Faroe Islands and Iceland. In this case, England will also count, which will have a great Scandinavian influence.
I think the comparison is not very good due to the fact that unlike France which is a culture of a single nation, Scandinavian culture is related to a set of countries that have a great historical interest (As well as Iberian culture, the balkans culture among others )

Yes I am aware what the word Scandinavia means thank you very much. It however is extremely anchranostic in this time period(Along with the entire idea of Nationalism). Somebody like Hadradda would never have thought of himself as a Scandinavian but rather as a Norwegian. This also does not explain at all why you think the Scandinavians would prove any better at assimilating the English into their cultural sphere than the French did. Just look at Russia which has historically given zero shits about Scandinavia.

well considering that hadrada was a Knut wanna be, after the conquest of england the norwegian king would probably invade denmark. With the manpower of england i think it is likely that hadrada will conquer denmark (before that probably hadrada will conquer the scottish isles). The English ruling classes were already half Dane (Scandinavian), before the Norman conquest of England the nation was being pulled for centuries into Scandinavia being virtually part of Scandinavia in economy, language and culture with centuries of colonization by the Vikings. It would be just another Scandinavian king conquering England. What happened at OTL was that the Normans pulled England towards a much more Latin (French) and continental culture (with the wars for the crown of France). This England would be more insular with a focus on Scandinavian countries, especially Denmark (more culturally similar). Probably hadrada and the heir to this empire (three kingdoms england, norway and denmark) probably tried to recreate the viking kingdom in ireland, perhaps conquer scotland in addition to probably interfering in the baltic.

This is assuming this massive empire actually manages to hold together after his death(And he was 50 when he died so he didn't exactly have a long life ahead of him). Their's quite a large distance between England and Scandinavia, and unless the Ynglings get extremely lucky with having all their territory pass to only one heir every time, all the while simelatnously not going extinct, and or the empire uniting after very fratricidal civil war. Also when has any country in any time period put Geography and its own self interest behind cultural closeness? What does Scandinavia really have to offer England in terms of trade in comparison to France and the HRE?

 

[Aluma]

This also does not explain at all why you think the Scandinavians would prove any better at assimilating the English into their cultural sphere than the French did.

Honestly if the french couldnt do it I dont think anyone from Europe could considering they were THE big european power then

 

[Viking25]

Honestly if the french couldnt do it I dont think anyone from Europe could considering they were THE big european power then

Least of all Scandinavia whose biggest relevance in the mind of your average high Middle Ages European was Reindeers and Goshawks and whose largest country Sweden still hadn't reached over a million people by the 1500s

 

[Aluma]

Hey dont be so mean with Imperial Sweden, they still almost got Russia later which honestly is a much higher challenge than Britain

Besides the norse got to America first as well, its just too bad that they didnt do much with it

I could genuinely see a TL where a Super Scandinavia as a result of the whole Vinland thing working out and the swedish beating the russians

But also its true that they werent going to subdue any of the european great powers pre 1500, not without a Hardrada or a Canut anyway, and with those they'd still get absorbed into the local culture

Dont get me wrong I do think their norse heritage could play a big role still, fucking Hanouver did so why not Scandinavia is still bigger than that place, but you're absolutely right that they wouldnt become some kind of viking nationalists out of nowhere just because they made one successful conquest

 

[Viking25]

Hey dont be so mean with Imperial Sweden, they still almost got Russia later which honestly is a much higher challenge than Britain

Besides the norse got to America first as well, its just too bad that they didnt do much with it

I could genuinely see a TL where a Super Scandinavia as a result of the whole Vinland thing working out and the swedish beating the russians

But also its true that they werent going to subdue any of the european great powers pre 1500, not without a Hardrada or a Canut anyway, and with those they'd still get absorbed into the local culture

Dont get me wrong I do think their norse heritage could play a big role still, fucking Hanouver did so why not Scandinavia is still bigger than that place, but you're absolutely right that they wouldnt become some kind of viking nationalists out of nowhere just because they made one successful conquest

Touche(Though I was mostly talking about Sweden before the Swedish Empire). I still think they would eventually get out weighed for lack of a better term by countries like Germany or Russia as time went on just due to the sheer disparity in population and resources. I mean the British Empires economy was smaller than the US's even before WW1 and that was with them owning half the world.

 

[Aluma]

. I mean the British Empires economy was smaller than the US's even before WW1 and that was with them owning half the world

Yeah but its not like they made good use of it

 

[Viking25]

Yeah but its not like they made good use of it

And why the existence of the British Empire proves that our TL is clearly the result of Skippy getting bored and using too much weed.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

which honestly is a much higher challenge than Britain

is it

 

[Gokbay]

Not like they are alone in that. Greece is still crying over the sack of Constantinople.

Nah, that would be the 4th Crusade, I haven't seen Greeks mentioning that much.

What Greece is mad about is the fall of Constantinople.

 

[VVD0D95]

All jokes aside I can't bring myself to understand why people like the Anglo Saxons so much. Like yeah whatever they weren't Fr*nch and that's all well and good, but I just don't get the appeal. I mean come on actual blood money was the bedrock of their society, they did plenty of vile shit off their own; If Williams harrying of the north was a genocide than so was the Saint Brices day massacre. I mean here's what King Ethelred himself had to say about it.


This along with all the weird racial theories associated with them.....Yeah honestly if you want a pre Norman British power who fought against foreign invaders to simp over than the native Irish are right their with absolutely no cringe genocide, racism or conspiracy theories. Brian Boru>Harold Godwinson.

That we know of. Kind of hard to know what the fuck was going on when there was so much monastery sacking etc.