What if...

Hashasheen

Banned
my POD is this: Knights Templar kicked out of Outremer, go to Italy and base them selves in an Italian city state, Pope gets ambitous, uses them to conquer Italian City-states and basically form the Italy of Today plus Nice, Pope becomes ruler of Italy, with Knights Templar his personal elite military force, and a larger theme based army as support, when the French King asks for the loan, the Knights refuse, and the pope indeed turns on him, giving the pope the territory of France, except for that taken England, next the Pope forms an alliance with the Scots, training their army against the english, the current Pope then plans a crusade to take palestine, and egypt (by this time, the knights templar number 40,000 in troops, not counting the support base, with them supplanting the noblity of Italy and France slowly,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_the_Light#Doctrine sort of how these guys took over their fictional country)
so tell me possible or not?
 
Too many vested interests in Italy's many states.

The other powers would stop any Caesaropopism before Italy was united.

Half the royal houses will be married into them, then we have trade and everything else.

Whatever happens, if the Pope had an army cross the Alps, he would be crushed by everybody capable of raising forces.

Also, the templars weren't an invincible army - sort of the reason they needed to leave Outremer ;)
 

ninebucks

Banned
The Papacy and the Knight's Templar, (not just the KT mind, it pays to diversify when it comes to patronising chivalrous sects), might have been able to unite Italy, but I think you'd have to make the Crusades fizzle out first, the wars in the Near East were a perfect drain of military might, remove them, and there are a lot of unemployed warriors around willing to fight for any cause that will pay them.

Conquering France is probably too extreme, and using the Scots as a fifth-column against the English is a non-starter (the English and the Scots were never able to do more than beat each other into a bloody stalemate). However, I do have a soft spot for Papacywanks, so I'm eager to see if this can get any more plausible.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
Too many vested interests in Italy's many states.

The other powers would stop any Caesaropopism before Italy was united.

Half the royal houses will be married into them, then we have trade and everything else.

Also, the templars weren't an invincible army - sort of the reason they needed to leave Outremer ;)

hm then how about this?
After the Defeat of the KT in Outremer, and their fleeing back to europe, the pope decided to dissolve all the chivalric orders into 2 orders:

The Knights Templars and the Knights Hospitallers, with the KT as the Papal Army, and the KH as the Papal Navy (which i think they were better at) , With the Pope in command of a conslidated and powerful force, its commanders decide to take power in the various city states, marrying into their powerful families, meanwhile the war against the English is not going very well, and the King of France asks the KT for the loan as before, but they ask for a few days to decide on the matter, in the meeting,

it is agreed that they cannot expect the King to pay it back, and the best
position he can take from the english would be a stalemate so they decide to take advantage, telling the king that instead of the loan that they will send an army of 6,000 knights to aid him, they take corisca from Franch and launch an asault on the coast in the south, faced with a 2 front war, king philip capitulates, with the southern coast of france taken by the Pope, and the northern coast is taken by the english
 

Hashasheen

Banned
The Papacy and the Knight's Templar, (not just the KT mind, it pays to diversify when it comes to patronising chivalrous sects), might have been able to unite Italy, but I think you'd have to make the Crusades fizzle out first, the wars in the Near East were a perfect drain of military might, remove them, and there are a lot of unemployed warriors around willing to fight for any cause that will pay them.

Conquering France is probably too extreme, and using the Scots as a fifth-column against the English is a non-starter (the English and the Scots were never able to do more than beat each other into a bloody stalemate). However, I do have a soft spot for Papacywanks, so I'm eager to see if this can get any more plausible.

hmm i'll consider an end from the battle of hittin's aftermath, that would get the ball rolling, but as for France, the kingdom was fighting the english for the time, and they could not have won a 2 front war. as for the scots, they did go there in OTL i think, and supported robert the bruce against the english
 
Bigger reformation

As implausible as I find this scenario, one interesting side effect I think would occur. With the pope marrying familly and conquering, that kind of war mongering would provide a huge adrenaline boost to the reformation. Kings would want to have as much control of their churches as possible to make sure this conquering pope does not have any influence. Maybe this even makes the Holy Roman Emperor more receptive to Lutheranism or whatever popular reformist movement pops up.
 
hmm i'll consider an end from the battle of hittin's aftermath, that would get the ball rolling, but as for France, the kingdom was fighting the english for the time, and they could not have won a 2 front war. as for the scots, they did go there in OTL i think, and supported robert the bruce against the english
Hundred Years' War: France fights England and Burgundy at the same time. England fights France, Scotland, and, at times, Castille. Neither nation collapses from the fighting.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
I'd suggest a Schism sometime before the KsT bailed out Philip. KsT relocate to the Papal States.

Anyway, I wrote a Templar timeline : clicky

im reading it as i speak, far better than what i could have come up with, my reformed idea is this:
2 orders are created from all the others:
Knights of Solomon: KT: Army
Knights of St. John: KH: Navy
POD on battle of hittin, all the troops go even the ones in Jeursalam, after the battle of hittin, they all get killed, and Saladin takes the entirity of the kingdom, including Acre and all the coastal cities that made it in OTL.
King Richard does not launch the Third Crusade, and instead is busy solidifiying his base in England, on their return to Europe the crusader orders are unified into a navy and army, under the direct command of the pope, with the crusades over for now, many second sons join the order eager for some sort of living, The Senior Commanders of the Orders begin to marry into the noble families, by now the military branches number 40,000 men and are extremely well trained force to be reckoned with, when the French King begins to turn on them, they start to sell off their holdings to the french noblemen and use the money to support the scots covertly.
when the king of france decides to turn on them, they invade Corsica and raid the coast of France, the king of France, realises his position and accordingly sues for peace with the Knights to focus on the english armies bearing down on him, the Knights take Corisca, and return to Rome.
Ok since this is the basic idea, who knows, maybe i'll take it up to WW1
 
oh ok then sorry, but Castille? isnt that in Spain?

No. Castille is only a part of the territory that we nowadays call Spain. There were also other territories, which over time were assimilated by Castille to form the Kingdom Of Spain.
I don't find the scenario all that plausible. There would be some resistance from the populations, maybe even alliances would be formed between nations. And of course, the unification of Italy wouldn't be all that easy and internal uprisings would probably occur.
And like Geordie87 pointed out: the Templars weren't an invicible army.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
1. No. Castille is only a part of the territory that we nowadays call Spain. There were also other territories, which over time were assimilated by Castille to form the Kingdom Of Spain.
2. I don't find the scenario all that plausible. 3. There would be some resistance from the populations, maybe even alliances would be formed between nations. 4. And of course, the unification of Italy wouldn't be all that easy and internal uprisings would probably occur.
5. And like Geordie87 pointed out: the Templars weren't an invicible army.
1. understood
2. to 4 how about a simple reunification of italy, and moderate expansion in europe? failing that, control of the Sicily, Corisca, Sardinia, OR Scotland base for Knights Templar, or yet again Swissterland
5. BUT, they were pretty baddass, i recall a battle where 500 of them, broke an army of 26,000 under saladin
 
1. understood
2. to 4 how about a simple reunification of italy, and moderate expansion in europe? failing that, control of the Sicily, Corisca, Sardinia, OR Scotland base for Knights Templar, or yet again Swissterland
5. BUT, they were pretty baddass, i recall a battle where 500 of them, broke an army of 26,000 under saladin


2 to 4: reunification of Italy COULD be done, but probably not as easily as you'd think. At the time, each part was really quite individualistic (and they did have interests to mantain in keeping it that way). Also keep in mind that if they had attempted that by use of arms, internal uprisings could take place, like I already stated; especially at the time, keeping down numerous interests was certainly not easy. Sicily, Corisca or Sardinia could be done, yes, I suppose. As for Scotland, I don't see why? Yes, they could try to invade England from there, but just by themselves that would be difficult. And of course, if they were not as familiar and as knowledgeable as the area, the task would be even harder... remember that even for people originally from there defeating England proved to be difficult. There is also the issue of resources; getting ahold of everything would be hard if the Scottish people rebelled against them as well. England, although not exactly friendly to Scotland, in seeing that the Templars would be trying to invade the area, would probably try to help the Scots.
5. They were, but you have to keep in mind factors like the type of terrain, the familiary of said terrain from both sides, their preparation, etc, etc.. Sometimes just a slight strategic mistake from one man high up is enough to make 26,000 crumble under the weight of just 500.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
2 to 4: Sicily, Corisca or Sardinia could be done, yes, I suppose.
5. They were, but you have to keep in mind factors like the type of terrain, the familiary of said terrain from both sides, their preparation, etc, etc.. Sometimes just a slight strategic mistake from one man high up is enough to make 26,000 crumble under the weight of just 500.
2 to 4: ok, i could have a POD in that area, or as i said before Switzerland? any suggestions for a nation would be welcomed.\
5: true, but the battle alone made them feared throughout christendom, and even before that, the KT were heavly trained, with even their horses trained to bite an kick in a fight, making them a specialist force no?
 
2 to 4: ok, i could have a POD in that area, or as i said before Switzerland? any suggestions for a nation would be welcomed.\
5: true, but the battle alone made them feared throughout christendom, and even before that, the KT were heavly trained, with even their horses trained to bite an kick in a fight, making them a specialist force no?

Probably make them feared, yes -- but remembered that there'll always be someone who challenges the ones who are feared. Besides depends on WHO is telling the story, and who is being told ;)

Mmm I'm not sure if Switzerland would be all that easy due to the terrain in some areas... but could be done, I suppose.
Although, Corisca or Sardinia would be the most plausible... I could see the nation as basically being under a feudal system, yet due to the investments of the Pope / KT being extremely rich and unthreatened by neighbouring states. Also, politically peaceful (internally) yet unsettled (externally) and although aiming to expand, not doing so for the aforementioned reasons.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
Mmm I'm not sure if Switzerland would be all that easy due to the terrain in some areas... but could be done, I suppose.
Although, Corisca or Sardinia would be the most plausible... I could see the nation as basically being under a feudal system, yet due to the investments of the Pope / KT being extremely rich and unthreatened by neighbouring states. Also, politically peaceful (internally) yet unsettled (externally) and although aiming to expand, not doing so for the aforementioned reasons.

ok so scotland, france and italy are out.
Corisca and Sardinia are doable
Switzerland is possible but challenging
what about Greece? is that possible?
or even ireland?
 
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