What if you didn't fly over "flyover country"?

[Joe Bonkers]

In all the discussions railroad geeks like me have had about a stronger surviving US railroad passenger system/few-to-no airlines and Interstate highways, I don't know that I've seen this question ever come up:

Suppose that just like the 1940s, most people, even celebrities and relatively wealthy, traveled most of the time by train in the US - private cars or whatever, but still by train. (Use whatever POD you want.) This is in lieu of traveling by air. Now, the coastal liberal elites in the US have over the past 30 years or so evolved the condescending term "flyover country" for the swath of middle America that holds to different political and social values than they do. I think part of the reason it's so easy for such folk to use such a dismissive term is because they don't interact more than necessary with middle America - it's literally nothing more than what you "fly over" when traveling between NY and LA.

So, if the trip were being made on the ground, would greater interaction between the two groups occur, such that a term like "flyover country" never arises? Or would it be worse; the coastal elites would refer to middle America as "ride-through country" or something like that (and resent it even more because of how much longer the trip took)?

(This is a bit rambling, so I hope it makes sense.)

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Probably the latter. Train passengers don't really need to disembark or interact with the locals.

 

[Nivek]

Probably the latter. Train passengers don't really need to disembark or interact with the locals.

Yeah would still be the rural states or the passby country

 

[Zheng He]

Not sure how much of a difference it will make. The only time they might get off the train is in a place like Chicago or other good sized urban areas (Denver perhaps). I imagine the trains they travel on will be express trains that won't stop in smaller cities and only cater to people like them so they only view of "ride through country" they get will be from a window as they whiz by. That is if they are even bothering to spend much time looking out the window.

 

[Mark E.]

You would see more luxury coaches for those who could afford it. Currently, New York to Los Angeles on Amtrak is about 68 hours with one train change. Now, if you can speed up the lines to 100 mph, that's not bullet train speed, but it could cut the time in half. Board at 8 PM in New York and reach LA at 5 AM the second day later. That's two nights and one full day. The railroads could arrange lines and schedules to make stops as brief as possible, adding and dropping cars on the way. Rail lines take less right-of-way than highways and elevated portions would be more compact.

 

[Mark E.]

Yeah would still be the rural states or the passby country

Currently, flyover includes the whole central time zone. With rail travel everywhere, that division moves farther west because a coast to coast train will be adding and dropping cars in its brief stops. Unlike airplanes, people can move about on trains; they are not cramped into seats. Travelers will "get used to" certain stops and the amenities they might add. There will be more interaction between travelers. If you look at the map, rail lines that cross the continental divide cross Interstate 35 at San Antonio, Kansas City, Des Moines and Minneapolis. Passby country would start west of this division (Omaha takes the hub, not Des Moines). East of this line, you have continuously farmed land and metro areas that connected to the manufacturing grid since the 19th century. The quickest way from New York to LA might not necessarily go through Chicago, as Indianapolis and Cincinnati are all part of the rail grid that will have developed differently without air travel.

 

[GeographyDude]

Now, the coastal liberal elites in the US have over the past 30 years or so evolved the condescending term "flyover country" for the swath of middle America that holds to different political and social values than they do.

Yes, No, Maybe.

I think used ironically and maybe with a laugh of embarrassment at being politically incorrect.

And honest to gosh, seems to mostly be used by TV pundits come election time.

 

[GeographyDude]

Maybe this gets more attention?

The Youngstown [Ohio] Sheet & Tube Company shut down a major plant on Sept. 19, 1977.

On The 40th Anniversary Of Youngstown’s “Black Monday,” An Oral History - Belt Magazine

Forty years ago today, Youngstown Sheet & Tube announced it was shuttering Campbell Works. It was a devastating blow to a city that had become synonymous with the steel industry and has since become synonymous with deindustrialization and its accompanying urban decline.

beltmag.com

But people already knew about the decline of the U.S. steel industry. Other than taking a deep breath, viewing it as part of national security, and being willing to spend the big bucks — I’m not sure there were many good solutions.

 

[Mark E.]

Full rail service would create yet another industry: food for the travelers. Airplane food is quite lacking. Airport food is overpriced. Amtrak food is ordinary, pre-packaged. With major train service, people will take a day or two to travel and there will be a market for better, distinctive meals. When the train makes its brief stop at a hub to make the car changes, in comes the local cuisine. San Antonio Tex-Mex. Kansas City bar-b-que. Omaha steaks. Northern cuisine in Minnesota. New specialties turn up in other cities. You will have the opposite of "flyover" neglect. Did you try that dish from St. Louis? Salt Lake City may not be known for drinking, but they will market their "Polygamy Porter." As the advertisement says, "why have just one?"

I have literally heard the Midwest referred to as "Mid-Waste." That reputation would not happen in this time line.

 

[marathag]

Railroad had different levels of service

A 'Limited' would have few stops, generally stopping only for refueling and water, but some roads had troughs where the tender could scoop up water at speed. would have a couple Coaches, Dining and Sleeping cars, along with baggage/mail car, Lounge and Observation cars. Typically less than a dozen cars in all, to keep high speed up

'Express' would have more stops, still have a Diner but no sleepers, and full RPO for mailsorting and REA for fast freight

Then you got to runs that wouldn't have a full diner or observation, and would hit every stop, with sandwiches and such in the Lounge or Parlor car, and open coaches
and no full baggage car

 

[Joe Bonkers]

Proximity could be a factor in addressing the decline of the Rust Belt. It's a little harder to ignore something when you see it up close and personal. Not guaranteed, of course, but the possibility is there.

 

[Riain]

People's leisure time is fixed, so without the ability to go coast to coast in half a day people will use the same travel time on the higher-speed (125mph) rail network to travel as far as they can for half a day, so maybe 6-700 miles. This would make the US a fair bit more regional than OTL.

Something else that would be cool is if riverboat gambling was the main source of legal gambling in the US. This would draw people to areas of navigable rivers for 'local' holidays instead of Vegas and AC.

 

[Mark E.]

People's leisure time is fixed, so without the ability to go coast to coast in half a day people will use the same travel time on the higher-speed (125mph) rail network to travel as far as they can for half a day, so maybe 6-700 miles. This would make the US a fair bit more regional than OTL.

Something else that would be cool is if riverboat gambling was the main source of legal gambling in the US. This would draw people to areas of navigable rivers for 'local' holidays instead of Vegas and AC.

As one who lives in the cradle of modern riverboat gambling, I can comment here. Atlantic City did not get casinos until 1978, more than 30 years after Nevada. Even then, officials were worried about crime. In the early eighties, state lotteries began to spread. In 1989, Iowa came up with the idea that if smaller states pooled their resources together, the jackpot can match those of larger states. It started as the "multi-state" lottery and quickly became PowerBall. That same year, Iowa and South Dakota took another bold move: riverboat casinos. Again, there was the concern over crime. It never happened. Soon, commercial gambling spread in the Midwest. Missouri established boat-in-a-moat casinos after 1993, sixteen years after becoming the last state to legalize the sale of light bulbs on Sunday, prohibited on "moral" grounds. These are commercial casinos, not related to Native American reservations. Many casinos failed or relocated. Decades ago, I went to Sam's Town in Kansas City and it is now abandoned, with activity relocated a few miles west. Catfish Bend riverboat casino in Ft. Madison, Iowa relocated when the state legalized land-based Vegas style casinos in 2008. The state has casinos, but they do not build local economies. They primarily attract senior citizens for slot machines, not high-rollers except on holidays (New Year's eve, etc.).

For railroad fans, the town of Fort Madison, Iowa built an elaborate walkway over the Santa Fe rail double-track mainline that runs between Chicago and Los Angeles. The riverboat casino it served left the river and moved 20 miles north to a land-based mall in 2008. You can't blame the casino. The river has 20-foot elevation changes depending on water level, not easy for water and sewage plumbing, or access ramps.

 

[Riain]

boat-in-a-moat casinos

This stabs at the heart of my romantic vision of riverboat casinos.

 

[Mark E.]

This stabs at the heart of my romantic vision of riverboat casinos.

Very few riverboat casinos actually cruise on the Mississippi River. I once took an hour-cruise, but the Alton Belle (north of St. Louis) is permanently docked, I believe. Same with many others.

Boat in a moat is a rather unique concept for Missouri. The moat is nothing but a swimming pool with water pumped from the Mississippi or Missouri Rivers. It is elevated so there is no response to river level. The one 15 miles from me, Mark Twain Casino in LaGrange, MO, is built so the gambling floor floats, but everything else is on fixed construction. The restaurant and rest rooms are on the fixed construction. The bar is interesting. The patrons sit at a station with gambling machines that float; while the bartender, sinks and beer taps, are on the fixed floor. As you walk from the gambling area to the rest room or restaurant, you cross a plastic seam that might move a fraction of an inch as the pumped water moves. So, the floating area needs only electricity and ventilation ducting.

 

[HARRY]

Edison rather then getting into the current war with Telsa & Westinghouse uses his DC motors to do what they are best at with higher starting torque, quick starting and stopping, reversing, variable speeds with voltage input all which are perfect for transport. He "borrows" the idea of the Frenchman Hielmann for a locomotive which uses steam engine to drive the locomotive via an electrical transmission but when traveling urban areas links to overhead wires so no air pollution. This is follow by electric cars which are easier to start, drive and less polluting then the interal combustion cars unfortunately they have a short range so can been used only in towns & cities. However by introducing a specialize railcars where vehicles can be driven on, charged up on the journey rail passengers can travel relaxed and in comfort across the country disembarking at the destination with their own car. ICE engine vehicle become niche vehicles, fewer major cross country highways are built with more freight going by rail so passenger services are not cut back and flying remains in the realm of the well off.

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Fly-under states: Edison, Tesla, Carnegie, etc. all team up to build a super-fast electric subway from New York to San Francisco, because reasons.

 

[Martinus Padueius]

Full rail service would create yet another industry: food for the travelers. Airplane food is quite lacking. Airport food is overpriced. Amtrak food is ordinary, pre-packaged. With major train service, people will take a day or two to travel and there will be a market for better, distinctive meals. When the train makes its brief stop at a hub to make the car changes, in comes the local cuisine. San Antonio Tex-Mex. Kansas City bar-b-que. Omaha steaks. Northern cuisine in Minnesota. New specialties turn up in other cities. You will have the opposite of "flyover" neglect. Did you try that dish from St. Louis? Salt Lake City may not be known for drinking, but they will market their "Polygamy Porter." As the advertisement says, "why have just one?"

I have literally heard the Midwest referred to as "Mid-Waste." That reputation would not happen in this time line.

Airplane food is delicious. But I've never seen airplane food on a domestic flight, they could only be long enough in Russia.
Airport food is 100% overpriced.

 

[biffer]

If the US had been interested in rail, it’s not unrealistic to assume technology development would have been driven harder from the fifties through the next few decades. So genuinely high speed rail (200 mph+)would be more common. That would make overnight sleeper trains from coast to coast practical with 14 or 15 hour journeys. Getting on a train in Washington at say 7.30pm, settle in to a cabin, evening meal, rise in the morning, breakfast and arrive in San Francisco for 9am the next day easily. Chicago New York around four hours. New York to Washington in ninety minutes.

 

[biffer]

Airplane food is delicious. But I've never seen airplane food on a domestic flight, they could only be long enough in Russia.
Airport food is 100% overpriced.

Up until a couple of years ago I got a cooked breakfast flying from Edinburgh to London, all BA flights before 9am, economy class.