what if Yamamoto survived world war II?

heres something I have always wondered, what would be the effects of Yamamoto not being killed in world war II?
 
Undoubtedly he would stand trial for war crimes of some sorts. Since Tojo eventually was executed I don't think its no stretch of reason to believe that the same would happen to Yamamoto.
 
Undoubtedly he would stand trial for war crimes of some sorts. Since Tojo eventually was executed I don't think its no stretch of reason to believe that the same would happen to Yamamoto.
I'm inclined to agree. As the architect of Pearl Harbor, he's pretty much first in line for the chop
 

Markus

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I'm inclined to agree. As the architect of Pearl Harbor, he's pretty much first in line for the chop

Well, I agree the Americans would love to execute him, but finding a pretext will be really hard. Even General Homma´s convition was questionable, convicting Yamamoto requires bending the law even more.
 

CalBear

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Yamamoto would almost certainly NOT have been executed for war crimes. Much like Rader or Dontiz he would have, at most, received a prison term. He may have even been able to avoid that, given the lack of unrestricted submarine warfare by the IJN, although the behavior of some of his subordinates would likely have gotten him a stretch in the House of Many Doors.
 
Remember MacArthur would have been in charge of the trial and he took spiteful vindictiveness to previously unheard-of levels. Yamashita was executed and the only hangable offense he committed was beating MacArthur.I honestly believe MacArthur would have hanged Yamamoto and found some excuse for doing so.
 

CalBear

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Remember MacArthur would have been in charge of the trial and he took spiteful vindictiveness to previously unheard-of levels. Yamashita was executed and the only hangable offense he committed was beating MacArthur.I honestly believe MacArthur would have hanged Yamamoto and found some excuse for doing so.

Actually Dougout Doug was able to Danny Deever the General because he tried him in the Philippines. The trials in Japan were a bit more above board, rather like their ETO counterparts.
 
heres something I have always wondered, what would be the effects of Yamamoto not being killed in world war II?

Not significant, I would guess. Maybe he would write impressive memoirs. (BTW, is there any good IJN memoirs besides Hara's "Japanese Destroyer Captain" available in some Western language?) Yamamoto would be too old for a command position in new JMSDF.
 

bard32

Banned
heres something I have always wondered, what would be the effects of Yamamoto not being killed in world war II?

He probably would have tightened up the Japanese cruisers and destroyers
at Leyte Gulf. The Northern Force, which was a decoy to lure Halsey away from the beaches, had the Japanese aircraft carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku,
the carriers which played NO PART in Midway since they were out from May
1942 to October 1944, and had no air wings.
 

bard32

Banned
Not significant, I would guess. Maybe he would write impressive memoirs. (BTW, is there any good IJN memoirs besides Hara's "Japanese Destroyer Captain" available in some Western language?) Yamamoto would be too old for a command position in new JMSDF.

I'd recommend Zero by Martin Caidin and Masataki Okumiya. Masataki Okumiya was an officer in both the IJN and the JMSDF. Other than that, I don't
know.
 

bard32

Banned
Remember MacArthur would have been in charge of the trial and he took spiteful vindictiveness to previously unheard-of levels. Yamashita was executed and the only hangable offense he committed was beating MacArthur.I honestly believe MacArthur would have hanged Yamamoto and found some excuse for doing so.

Precisely. The reason why was simple. Yamashita was in charge of the Japanese troops in the Philippines, and he let his soldiers run wild. That was why MacArthur approved Yamashita's execution. On a related note, after the
Son May, (Mi Lai,) Massacre, Lieutenant William Calley was court-martialed for
not controlling his men. The same charge that cost Yamashita his life.
 

bard32

Banned
Actually Dougout Doug was able to Danny Deever the General because he tried him in the Philippines. The trials in Japan were a bit more above board, rather like their ETO counterparts.

You're half-right, Calbear. Near the end of the trials in Japan, the Dutch judge
played politics. Then you had General Shiro Ikii, the head of Unit 731, Japan's
biological warfare unit. Neither General Ikii, nor his men, were prosecuted.
Why? Because the United States wanted his biological warfare data before the
Soviets did. It was the Japanese who developed a plague bomb and dropped it on I think, the city of Harbin, China. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. There
are several books written on the subject of Unit 731. The first is aptly titled
Unit 731.
 

CalBear

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Precisely. The reason why was simple. Yamashita was in charge of the Japanese troops in the Philippines, and he let his soldiers run wild. That was why MacArthur approved Yamashita's execution. On a related note, after the
Son May, (Mi Lai,) Massacre, Lieutenant William Calley was court-martialed for
not controlling his men. The same charge that cost Yamashita his life.


Bollocks. Again.

General Yamashita was in the Philippines for exactly TEN DAYS before the American landing on Leyte. When he declared Manila an Open City and withdrew his troops (in order to spare the civilians from the house to house fighting) his IJN counterpart Admiral Iwabuchi, in defiance of Yamashita's declaration of an Open City (which didn't apply to the IJN under the rather bizarre structure that prevaded the Japanese command system) reoccupied the city with the men under his command, resulting in the destruction the Army officer had sought to avoid.

Ironically, Yamashita was, by most all accounts, what the West would have considered an "honorable" commander. When his troops took Singapore there was some quite organized looting and a hospital massacre, Yamashita had the officer responsible executed. Tojo yanked him out of Singapore for treating the locals too humanely.

Yamashita was executed simply becuase he defeated the British at Singapore and because he held out until September 2, 1945 in the Philippines. He no more deserved to be hung than Patton, Montgomery, or McArthur himself (actually probably LESS than McArthur).
 

CalBear

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He probably would have tightened up the Japanese cruisers and destroyers
at Leyte Gulf. The Northern Force, which was a decoy to lure Halsey away from the beaches, had the Japanese aircraft carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku,
the carriers which played NO PART in Midway since they were out from May
1942 to October 1944, and had no air wings.

Factually incorrect

Shokaku



24 August 1942: Battle of the Eastern Solomons. Light damage from bomb fragments.
5 September 1942: Arrive at Truk.
11 October 1942: Depart Truk for Guadalcanal operations. 26 October 1942: Battle of Santa Cruz; heavily damaged by bombs. Four, possibly even six bombs struck the flight deck, one aft of the island and the rest all grouped around the amidships and aft elevators.

At Kure for repairs

9 July 1943: Depart Kure for Truk, followed by ZUIKAKU, the two sisters again re-united.

15 July 1943: Arrive at Truk.
18-25 September 1943: Sortied from Truk to Brown Island (Eniwetok) with Combined Fleet under VADM Ozawa's tactical command in response to U.S. Task Force 15 carrier raids on Tarawa and Makin.
17 October 1943:Sortied from Truk to Eniwetok with Combined Fleet under ADM Koga's command in response to U.S. Task Force 16 carrier raids on Wake Island.
30 October-13 November 1943: Operation RO - Reinforcement of Rabaul: 11 November 1943: Depart Truk for Yokosuka.
15 November 1943: Arrive at Yokosuka.
17 January 1944: Depart Yokosuka to rejoin ZUIKAKU in the Inland Sea.
6 February 1944: Depart Inland Sea by Tokuyama with ZUIKAKU for Singapore.
13 February 1944: Arrive at Singapore, the new advance base of "decisive operations".
20 February 1944: Depart Singapore for Lingga.
March 1944: Depart Guimaras with Mobile Fleet for the Battle of the Marianas.
18-19 June 1944:
In company with flagship TAIHO and sister ZUIKAKU participates in the Battle of the Marianas.
19 June 1944: Lost in Action


I count five actions & she is then sunk BEFORE Leyte.
Zuikaku

24 August 1942: Battle of the Eastern Solomons.
September 1942: Support force, striking force main body (3rd Fleet, CarDiv 1). In Truk area throughout.
11 October 1942:Depart Truk for Guadalcanal operations.
26 October 1942: Battle of Santa Cruz; bombed, but no damage.
30 October 1942: Return to Truk.29 January- 8 February 1943: Operation KE - Evacuation of Guadalcanal:
3 May 1943: Depart Truk for homeland.

8 May 1943: Arrive at Yokosuka.
15 May-2 June 1943: Departed Kure in response to 12 May U.S. invasion of Attu, to Tokyo Bay with CarDiv 1. Before force could sail to Aleutians, Attu fell to U.S. forces; returned to Kure.
18-25 September 1943: Sortied from Truk to Brown Island (Eniwetok) with Combined Fleet under VADM Ozawa's tactical command in response to U.S. Task Force 15 carrier raids on Tarawa and Makin. Returned to Truk.
17-26 October 1943: Sortied from Truk to Eniwetok with Combined Fleet under ADM Koga's command in response to U.S. Task Force 16 carrier raids on Wake Island. Returned to Truk.
30 October-13 November 1943: Operation RO - Reinforcement of Rabaul: 19 June 1944: In company with flagship TAIHO and sister SHOKAKU, becomes the only survivor of CarDiv 1 whenTAIHO is torpedoed and subsequently explodes and sister-ship SHOKAKU is set afire by torpedo attack,settles, and blows apart and sinks.
20 June 1944: Battle of the Philippine Sea; receive one direct bomb hit aft of the island, that penetrated the flight deckand started a fire in the hangar. Five close near misses by bombs, but all torpedoes avoided. Damage moderate.

20 October 1944: Depart Oita for "Sho" Operations as part of Ozawa's decoy force. 25 October 1944: Battle off Cape Engano: Sunk

I count SEVEN operations before being lost at Leyte.

Timelines from Combined Fleet.

In total there were TWELVE sorties and/or battles engaged in by these two ships AFTER Coral Sea, not counting time at sea on patrol.

The worst part of your ongoing incorrect factual statements is that you can find the truth so easily.
 

bard32

Banned
Bollocks. Again.

General Yamashita was in the Philippines for exactly TEN DAYS before the American landing on Leyte. When he declared Manila an Open City and withdrew his troops (in order to spare the civilians from the house to house fighting) his IJN counterpart Admiral Iwabuchi, in defiance of Yamashita's declaration of an Open City (which didn't apply to the IJN under the rather bizarre structure that prevaded the Japanese command system) reoccupied the city with the men under his command, resulting in the destruction the Army officer had sought to avoid.

Ironically, Yamashita was, by most all accounts, what the West would have considered an "honorable" commander. When his troops took Singapore there was some quite organized looting and a hospital massacre, Yamashita had the officer responsible executed. Tojo yanked him out of Singapore for treating the locals too humanely.

Yamashita was executed simply becuase he defeated the British at Singapore and because he held out until September 2, 1945 in the Philippines. He no more deserved to be hung than Patton, Montgomery, or McArthur himself (actually probably LESS than McArthur).

He may have been in the Philippines for ten days before Leyte but he was
tried, convicted, and executed, for not controlling his men. Is that right or wrong? His case was cited in the court-martial of William Calley in 1970. I read that in a book by Telford Taylor called Nuremburg and Vietnam. Telford
Taylor was a prosecutor at Nuremburg. Yamashita's men didn't obey his orders to leave the citizens of Manila alone. There were some in his command who disobeyed his orders. That was why he was tried and executed.
 

CalBear

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He may have been in the Philippines for ten days before Leyte but he was
tried, convicted, and executed, for not controlling his men. Is that right or wrong? His case was cited in the court-martial of William Calley in 1970. I read that in a book by Telford Taylor called Nuremburg and Vietnam. Telford
Taylor was a prosecutor at Nuremburg. Yamashita's men didn't obey his orders to leave the citizens of Manila alone. There were some in his command who disobeyed his orders. That was why he was tried and executed.

He may have been tried on the charge and convicted, but there is little question that his case was very much "victor's justice". The main war crime trials did not follow that path, at least not so blatantly, as they were meant as much for consumption of the defeated populous as for anything else.

He also DID NOT "allow his men to run wild in the Philippines" quite the opposite.
 
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