What if Yamamoto didn't died in 1943

"Plotting and waging aggressive war" might've gotten him hanged. Some German defendants like Streicher got the noose even though they were of little real importance.
And what where admirals Raeder and Donitz, nice people who followed the rules of war on the sea.
 
Did Admiral Yamamoto ever commit a war crime, i think he would receive a jail time like the German admirals Raeder and Donitz.
Yes. Plotting an aggressive war for one. For another, Japan did not declare war on the US before Pearl Harbor, and so everyone who died there was a noncombatant. As the man who planned and led th murder (yes, that IS the word because without a declaration of war it was murder) of so many US personnel he’s going to be hanged.

And what where admirals Raeder and Donitz, nice people who followed the rules of war on the sea.

Well, erm yes actually. They DID follow the rules of war. The closest they came to breaking them was SW. but the Allies did that too, and the defense brought in American admirals who said so. Can’t go executing Nimitz too, so not guilty it was on that score.
 

CalBear

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The only problem is, the Aliies DID allow terms.
The U.S. allowed the Emperor to remain in pace as a figurehead since that turned what could easily have turned into a decade long war of occupation (assuming it wasn't necessary to actually invade and kill a half million Japanese civilians, 80-100K civilians per month in areas under Japanese occupation, 100K+ U.S. military losses) into an administrative landing. It didn't hurt that the one-time God had to admit he was just another Joe, and he had to submit to an American Shogun.

How many USN ships would have to be put out of action in 1944 to severely hurt the USN?
8-10 fleet carriers sunk would have slowed things up for about six months.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Yes. Plotting an aggressive war for one. For another, Japan did not declare war on the US before Pearl Harbor, and so everyone who died there was a noncombatant. As the man who planned and led th murder (yes, that IS the word because without a declaration of war it was murder) of so many US personnel he’s going to be hanged.

Here's the thing though, assuming Yamamoto survives the war, he can point out that he insisted War be declared prior to the attack being launched. The fact that it wasn't isn't his fault. He can lay the blame for that on the Foreign Ministry. Whether that saves him from the noose is debatable, but it might be just enough to only give him an extended vacation in a gated community.
 
Here's the thing though, assuming Yamamoto survives the war, he can point out that he insisted War be declared prior to the attack being launched. The fact that it wasn't isn't his fault. He can lay the blame for that on the Foreign Ministry. Whether that saves him from the noose is debatable, but it might be just enough to only give him an extended vacation in a gated community.
He still launched the attack without war being declared. What he would have preferred is irrelevant.
 

SsgtC

Banned
He still launched the attack without war being declared. What he would have preferred is irrelevant.
Again, he can't control that though. He was under the impression that war would be declared prior to the attack actually being launched. That it wasn't was not his fault. And he had the documents backing him up on this. That he was assured war would be declared the first bomb fell
 

CalBear

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Actually the biggest difference would be the damage to the Yamamoto Myth.

Yamamoto wasn't half as clever as is assumed by many folks with only a surface understanding of the Pacific War. His entire reputation is built off a single well executed raid on the day the war began. Killer rep built on a single action that lasted about 6 hours, and failed in its real goal, the elimination of the Pacific Fleet as a threat.

After Pearl Harbor the IJN under Yamamoto's control primarily wasted time and effort. The raid on Darwin accomplished almost nothing in either a tactical or strategic sense. The IO Raid managed to sink a CVL, a couple CA, and some light forces none of which mattered in the Japanese plans prior to 1943 (although it did, admittedly, scare the crap out of Whitehall) while putting the Kido Butai 1,500 miles out of position when the U.S. sailed to carrier to within 700 miles of TOKYO launch an admittedly pure propaganda raid and get away clean. Then there was the Keystone Kops Midway/Aleutians operations with the IJN spread across 300,000 square miles of Ocean in the hope of getting the U.S. to jump in different directions in a blind panic and sail happily into an ambush (never mind the code breakers, if there was one man in the USN not prone to panic it was Chester Nimitz). That cost the IJN four decks that it could never hope to replace in a building race with the U.S. He then let the IJN get drawn into the one thing it absolutely could not survive, a battle of attrition with the USN in the Solomons (a decision that wound up getting him killed).

Had he survived the inspection trip to the Solomons the only question is if his gambling nature would overcome his natural conservative beliefs regarding the Decisive Battle. If it did the IJN battle line might have been wiped out earlier, perhaps trying to defend the Marianas.

The one serious change his survival might create is the introduction of the Kamikaze. That sort of foolish waste of personnel in penny packets wasn't Yamamoto's style. That change wouldn't alter the war strategically, although the tactical impacts (especially in the KIA/WIA figures for the USN in the war's final year) would be substantial, and, assuming no Bomb/Soviet entry might have made the invasion of the Home Islands more palatable.
 
Again, he can't control that though. He was under the impression that war would be declared prior to the attack actually being launched. That it wasn't was not his fault. And he had the documents backing him up on this. That he was assured war would be declared the first bomb fell
I’ll have to ask for a source there. I’ve seen no indication Japan ever intended to declare war on the US before Pearl Harbor. It went against decades of military doctrine, and rendered the whole surprise part of their attack moot.
 

SsgtC

Banned
I’ll have to ask for a source there. I’ve seen no indication Japan ever intended to declare war on the US before Pearl Harbor. It went against decades of military doctrine, and rendered the whole surprise part of their attack moot.
Here ya go. Keep in mind, though this research paper argues why what the Japanese did was NOT a declaration of war, the key element here is that the Japanese BELIEVED that it was. If Yamamoto, as only a military commander, was told that a declaration of war had been issued, he is absolved of responsibility for conducting an illegal attack on Pearl Harbor.

One other point to consider as well, he can argue that Hostilities were initiated by the United States, not him. The USS Ward attacked and sank a Japanese submarine hours before the attack on Pearl. While the argument would likely not work, it is one he can make. And the USN's own records support it. To me, Yamamoto being hung as a war criminal is the least likely outcome in any war crimes trial.

http://faculty.virginia.edu/setear/students/japanwc/2.htm
 
Here ya go. Keep in mind, though this research paper argues why what the Japanese did was NOT a declaration of war, the key element here is that the Japanese BELIEVED that it was.

The source does not say that.

From the fifth paragraph:

Third and most strikingly, officials in the Japanese government were aware that this was not a proper declaration of war. In fact, the Foreign Ministry did draft a formal declaration of war which was never sent to the United States and remained buried in the Foreign Ministryís Historical Archive until unearthed in 1997 by Professor R.J. Butow at the University of Washington.[17]Fourteen-Part Message...
Given the existence of this true declaration of war, the sending of the Fourteen-Part Message in its place is a clear sign that the Japanese government knew that the telegram was not a decisive declaration of war and yet still sent only this message prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. The only reasonable implication from these events is that the Japanese did not want to warn the Americans, yet felt honor-bound to provide some form of warning.

One other point to consider as well, he can argue that Hostilities were initiated by the United States, not him. The USS Ward attacked and sank a Japanese submarine hours before the attack on Pearl. While the argument would likely not work, it is one he can make. And the USN's own records support it. To me, Yamamoto being hung as a war criminal is the least likely outcome in any war crimes trial.

And the prosecution would point out that given Japan's history, their plan, and their proximity to Hawaii there was no alternative conclusion but that any unannounced military vessel was hostile.
 

SsgtC

Banned
@wcv215 , look, the argument you're making is damming. Of the Japanese government. Yamamoto was not a part of that government. He was a military officer. One who is bound, by law, to follow the lawful orders of said government. If he was told that a declaration of war was going to be issued prior to his attack, which, going from memory, he was, then he is not responsible, in a legal sense, for launching an attack on a neutral power. Yamamoto himself is unlikely to be executed for war crimes. The Japanese government on the other hand...
 
Yamamoto himself is unlikely to be executed for war crimes.

On the contrary - I think, officially, he would almost certainly have been executed for war crimes. Unofficially, of course, the capital offence he committed was catching the US Navy with its kecks round its ankles.
 
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