What if Yamamoto didn't died in 1943

How many USN ships would have to be put out of action in 1944 to severely hurt the USN?

To put it one way, the USN commissioned seven Essex class carriers in 1944. If they sink every carrier in the USN's inventory at the time of Saipan then 4 of those carriers would in service by the end of the year.
 

SsgtC

Banned
How many USN ships would have to be put out of action in 1944 to severely hurt the USN?
A lot. But we're not talking about crippling the USN as an effective fighting force. We're talking about buying time for Japan to negotiate a peace treaty. At least, I believe that's how Yamamoto would see it. He knows Japan can't win. He just wants to cause the US to pause long enough for his country to strike a deal.
 
A lot. But we're not talking about cripplinNext >g the USN as an effective fighting force. We're talking about buying time for Japan to negotiate a peace treaty. At least, I believe that's how Yamamoto would see it. He knows Japan can't win. He just wants to cause the US to pause long enough for his country to strike a deal.
There is no pause for a deal. Japan will still be firebombed to oblivion and nuked by the USAAF. No damage to the navy will prevent that by october 44 as the Marianas were already taken at this point. B-29s will be coming no matter what they do.
 
No they didn’t. People think they allowed the Emperor to be kept as a term of Japanese surrender, but the treaty says otherwise. The Emperor was kept because the Americans decided he could be, not as a term for surrender.

True, but the US could have been far more harsh than they were. Yamamoto hopes to inflict enough losses on the US to make them more likely to accept a deal to avoid further bloodshed, especially if he can show the US what they are facing by creating an earlier Iwo Jima or Okinawa.

Now whether or not this works is certainly debatable. I don't see the US stopping or even letting up. And Orcbuster is right - the B-29's are coming...
 
They lost the Yamamoto and a squadron of cruisers and destroyers.

People sometimes confuse Yamato with Yamamoto.:)
But what if the IJN, with or without the killing of Yamamoto in April '43, had figured out the allies had their code? Conceivably, they could've fed the USN false information, for example, that they were planning an attack to recapture Saipan in October 1944. Had Halsey's fleet been stationed nearby, in anticipation of this phony move, the invasion fleet at Leyte would've been bereft of adequate support when the IJN fleet sortied. What might've happened then?
 
Don't know what if any influence he has over the war but he's got a date with a noose if he survives until August 1945.
 
Had Halsey's fleet been stationed nearby, in anticipation of this phony move, the invasion fleet at Leyte would've been bereft of adequate support when the IJN fleet sortied. What might've happened then?
Yeah, I mean they would have just had a couple dozen destroyers, some escort carriers, and 400 aircraft. That’s basically the same thing as defenseless, right?
 
Yeah, I mean they would have just had a couple dozen destroyers, some escort carriers, and 400 aircraft. That’s basically the same thing as defenseless, right?
IOTL the response to Leyte included most of the surviving Japanese heavy hitters including Yamato and Musashi themselves. What you describe won't last long if the Japanese get enough of a whack at them.
 
IOTL the response to Leyte included most of the surviving Japanese heavy hitters including Yamato and Musashi themselves. What you describe won't last long if the Japanese get enough of a whack at them.

A bunch of DEs, DDs, and CVEs fought Musashi at Samar.
 
They did put up enough of a fight to convince Center Force to back off. I think that's indicative of how little heart the IJN had left in late 44.
 
IOTL the response to Leyte included most of the surviving Japanese heavy hitters including Yamato and Musashi themselves. What you describe won't last long if the Japanese get enough of a whack at them.

Yes, just like they were crushed at Samar...

Wait no, that’s literally the opposite of what happened.
 

nbcman

Donor
IOTL the response to Leyte included most of the surviving Japanese heavy hitters including Yamato and Musashi themselves. What you describe won't last long if the Japanese get enough of a whack at them.

By the Battle of Samar, Musashi was already sunk-see the Battle of Sibuyan Sea. IOTL-the Center Force was so disrupted after the attacks that they chose to withdraw at 0920, reorganize and pursue a non-existant US carrier force to the north. Assuming Admiral Yamamoto was still alive and was aboard Yamato, would he have made a different decision than Admiral Kurita? Regardless, TG 38.1 was already sending a strike from USS Hornet, Hancock and Wasp which would have likely struck Center Force prior than OTL. There were two other Taffys that were attacking Center Force. There initial attacks were not effective since the aircraft were armed with anti-submarine and anti-personnel weapons. But later attacks included torpedo armed aircraft which would have taken a toll on the ships of Center Force. Finally, the screening ships for Taffy 1 & 2 could have entered the fray which was 6 DDs plus 8 DEs. Center Force was contained by a force of half that size.
 
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By the Battle of Samar, Musashi was already sunk-see the Battle of Sibuyan Sea. IOTL-the Center Force was so disrupted after the attacks that they chose to withdraw at 0920, reorganize and pursue a non-existant US carrier force to the north. Assuming Admiral Yamamoto was still alive and was aboard Yamato, would he have made a different decision than Admiral Kurita? Regardless, TG 38.1 was already sending a strike from USS Hornet, Hancock and Wasp which would have likely struck Center Force prior than OTL. There were two other Taffys that were attacking Center Force. There initial attacks were not effective since the aircraft were armed with anti-submarine and anti-personnel weapons. But later attacks included torpedo armed aircraft which would have taken a toll on the ships of Center Force. Finally, the screening ships for Taffy 1 & 2 could have entered the fray which was 6 DDs plus 8 DEs. Center Force was contained by a force of half that size.
Add to the that the Japanese navy hadn't had proper target practice or access to proper maintenance facilities in a year.
They were stuck in the East Indies because not enough oil was reaching Japan due to the American blockade.
That showed against Taffy 3
 
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IOTL the response to Leyte included most of the surviving Japanese heavy hitters including Yamato and Musashi themselves. What you describe won't last long if the Japanese get enough of a whack at them.

What if the IJN, realizing its codes were compromised, sent false information, misleading the USN into thinking the IJN planned to hit Saipan? If Halsey had been stationed there from the start while the Leyte invasion began, so Kurita would've faced Oldendorf's fleet (without being attacked/attrited in the Subuyan) what would've happened then?
Btw if Kurita wasn't attacked in the Subuyan, he would've adhered to his original schedule, and reached Leyte around dawn on the 25th. In that case he would've missed taffy 3 in darkness and wouldn't have wasted center fleet chasing it.
 
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Did Admiral Yamamoto ever commit a war crime, i think he would receive a jail time like the German admirals Raeder and Donitz.

"Plotting and waging aggressive war" might've gotten him hanged. Some German defendants like Streicher got the noose even though they were of little real importance.
 
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