What if WW2 Was Delayed until the 50s

[Elfwine]

If they don't attack all across the front, then they leave the Soviets a lot of room to maneouver and outflank them.

And it's a much more mechanized and mobile force than the OTL Wehrmacht, not than the Red Army. Not only the USSR has no problem at all with oil, but will also have, in a delayed WWII, more factories and better tanks than the Germans.

Having a lot of room to manuever isn't much good for a force struggling with the issues the Red Army will.

And yes than the Red Army.

Plus, my observation on a 500k army is based on the war's OTL schedule (as stated to another user, I brought it up to address the issue of an all-mechanized German army having the oil if one built an army that wasn't oversized) - and even if it's delayed, better tanks are far from a given.

As for more factories - steel production is 20.7 million (Germany) to the USSR's 16.5 million in 1938.

Picked as the latest year before the war and its consequences render comparisons hard to make fairly.

Manufacturing as a percentage of the world's total is a bit higher than Germany's, but . . .

I'm not sure this translates directly into more war-power, especially with agriculture hurting so badly.

 

[Kongzilla]

Are there any German experimental designs like the ones from Luft46 that could have stood up to Korean war era fighter Jets.

Didn't the USSR import most of its food, if they are potentially at war with America who I think supplied them with Most of their grain in OTL, they would have to take things slower I presume.

Yes, I don't think an All mechanized army would be very helpful anymore, 500k super modern well train troops against + however well he allies are militarily. Going up against 5 million modernized troops with a lot of tanks. But I presume that the Germans would still be modern so there wouldn't be any Horses and what not.

How much difference would Italy finding Oil in Libya make, I'm not sure how much it could provide but could it allow Italy to become a bit of a bigger Naval force.

However I think on a tactical level the Soviets would be at a loss, I'm not sure but I read somewhere that NKVD officers at the start of the war could pretty much veto anything the CO said, so maybe that's still going on and it could be even worse.

 

[Elfwine]

Yes, I don't think an All mechanized army would be very helpful anymore, 500k super modern well train troops against + however well he allies are militarily. Going up against 5 million modernized troops with a lot of tanks. But I presume that the Germans would still be modern so there wouldn't be any Horses and what not.

Let's see, an all mechanized army vs. an army that isn't. An army able to move and strike as it pleases vs. one that has to cover everywhere.

I'm not betting on the Reds.

 

[Kongzilla]

Would the work better offensively or defensively.

 

[Elfwine]

Would the work better offensively or defensively.

That's more of a tactical question.

 

[Kongzilla]

With this 500K profesional army, when the war comes would it be rapidly expanded to OTL ww2 levels.

 

[Elfwine]

With this 500K profesional army, when the war comes would it be rapidly expanded to OTL ww2 levels.

No. The whole point of this 500k professional army is a different model than the MOAR DIVISIONS model.

 

[juanml82]

Having a lot of room to manuever isn't much good for a force struggling with the issues the Red Army will.

And yes than the Red Army.

Plus, my observation on a 500k army is based on the war's OTL schedule (as stated to another user, I brought it up to address the issue of an all-mechanized German army having the oil if one built an army that wasn't oversized) - and even if it's delayed, better tanks are far from a given.

As for more factories - steel production is 20.7 million (Germany) to the USSR's 16.5 million in 1938.

Picked as the latest year before the war and its consequences render comparisons hard to make fairly.

Manufacturing as a percentage of the world's total is a bit higher than Germany's, but . . .

I'm not sure this translates directly into more war-power, especially with agriculture hurting so badly.

The USSR vastly outproduced Germany during WWII. Granted, it benefited with Lend Lease, so they didn't need to produce trucks and many other equipment, as well as receiving huge amounts of food, and LL might not happen in a delayed WWII, but Soviet production was still huge.
As for tanks... by OTL's 1941 the best thing in Germany's inventory was the PzIV. By that time, either ATL or OTL, the USSR would have the KV1 and the T-34 and neither country would have a war to show them the issues with their equipment, which is specially hard on Germany. Their tanks lacked slopped armor until they've found the T-34 in the USSR.
I fail to see how the Red Army would have a less mobile, less numerous force. It's true the defender, unlike the attacker, has to cover everywhere. But if an attacker can't protect its flanks, a more numerous, mobile defender can very well turn into an attacker. And once the USSR seizes the initiative, it will be the Germans who need to defend everywhere. And they won't be able to.
WWII wasn't like current wars, in which NATO bombs countries with barely any air force, or small countries which lack multipliers like awacs and whose entire territories are under the range of NATO's air power. Nor were ground battles a fight between Abrams pitted against 20 years old export version tanks.
Even in a delayed WWII, Germany would only have a qualitative edge in aircraft, but no way to reach the Soviet factories, and in the ground the technological situation would be one of parity, if not Soviet superiority.
OTL WWII was won by the sides with numbers for a reason.

Sure, the USSR would still be hampered by the Purges but, given time, it will slowly start to improve, as new ranks fill in the gaps.

 

[Kongzilla]

What about better ICBMs by the Germans, give them a better missle which shouldn't be hard with an extra 5 years, maybe more. Add Chemical and Biological WMDs and that could hurt Soviet Production, I'm not sure about their bomber capacities but I don't think they would be able to reach Germany, and the Allies aren't going to come in to defend the Soviets. But I have no Idea.

I can understand the fact that a smaller well trained force could be very powerful indeed. But would there be enough troops for the various fronts. Also aesthetically would the Germans look like Early war troops with the Grey camo but be using late war weapons. Or would they be using Camouflage.

Also I think the Average German soldier would have it over a Soviet Soldier both in terms of training and equipment. Maybe even Morale.

 

[Elfwine]

The USSR vastly outproduced Germany during WWII. Granted, it benefited with Lend Lease, so they didn't need to produce trucks and many other equipment, as well as receiving huge amounts of food, and LL might not happen in a delayed WWII, but Soviet production was still huge.

Sure. But it's not as if German production - not on a total war footing until late in the war - was minor.

As for tanks... by OTL's 1941 the best thing in Germany's inventory was the PzIV. By that time, either ATL or OTL, the USSR would have the KV1 and the T-34 and neither country would have a war to show them the issues with their equipment, which is specially hard on Germany. Their tanks lacked slopped armor until they've found the T-34 in the USSR.
I fail to see how the Red Army would have a less mobile, less numerous force. It's true the defender, unlike the attacker, has to cover everywhere. But if an attacker can't protect its flanks, a more numerous, mobile defender can very well turn into an attacker. And once the USSR seizes the initiative, it will be the Germans who need to defend everywhere. And they won't be able to.

Less trucks and other elements of a mobile, mechanized force. And why Germany with a POD at the latest in the 30s can't catch up and surpass Russian tank design needs an answer.

And the USSR having the initiative is going to be rather tough when it's facing a force more mechanized than it is striking fast and hard.

WWII wasn't like current wars, in which NATO bombs countries with barely any air force, or small countries which lack multipliers like awacs and whose entire territories are under the range of NATO's air power. Nor were ground battles a fight between Abrams pitted against 20 years old export version tanks.

Even in a delayed WWII, Germany would only have a qualitative edge in aircraft, but no way to reach the Soviet factories, and in the ground the technological situation would be one of parity, if not Soviet superiority.
OTL WWII was won by the sides with numbers for a reason.

OTL wasn't fought by a German army that was especially good or well equipped (or even fully equipped), either.

Sure, the USSR would still be hampered by the Purges but, given time, it will slowly start to improve, as new ranks fill in the gaps.

Sure.

I think the only chance Germany has to win here is a more limited war - "conquer the USSR utterly" is not realistic, "defeat the USSR and take territory in the East" isn't impossible.

 

[33k7]

If the Soviets start the war Poland is still going to exist so the Germans are going to enter the war under the pretense of protecting Poland. There are also a bunch of smaller states that the Soviets will invade to Republic of Lithuania ringing any bells

The Soviets would also have to devote massive amount of equipment and men to invade Finland which would probably drag in Sweden and Norway
With Poland alone you have France and Britain getting involved and Franco Spain will come along for the ride to

So it's basically Europe versus the Soviets. And quite possibly the United States enters the war On Europe side. If you take away nuclear weapons I'm still pretty sure a united Europe could crush the Soviets.

If atomic weapons are in and the great motherland is the only one with them other countries will be close to achieving them. So in the long run the Soviets get crushed.

Most likely though it will be a three-way Cold War between Washington,Berlin and Moscow

 

[LeX]

Re: ICBMS - The Germans only built them because Hitler thought it was awesome and they could. It was an insane act of desperation more than anything else. We think they are great now but that was only after a couple decades of continued development and the addition of nuclear payloads.Otherwise they were just a waste of money, time, and resources that Germany would've better spent on more tanks.

 

[Kongzilla]

But with a germany looking more into controlling the world then taking it over, could Rocketry still be seen as a good option to strike at enemies in a way they would not be able to defend from. Maybe the new leader is very excited about rockets and making things go boom. If I can heal the Germans economy by the 40s I was hoping there would be a decade of tensions, where everyone knows a war is coming they just don't want it to happen. Everyone starts building up their weapons sort of like OTL.

On the note of wunderwaffe. Thermobaric weapons, the Germans were experimenting with them at the end of the war. Could they be made in this TL so they are ready to be applied to the Battlefield in 1950-52. Stick that in a warhead hey, how large would the warhead have to be to do at least 3 times the damage of a single V2 warhead.

It just seems that in order to have the war go on in 1950 you need a not entirely crazy leader, to have cool weapons and gadgetry you need a really crazy leader. It's very hard to find the balance, I need a Nazi George Bush.

 

[FickleCrossroad]

On the note of wunderwaffe. Thermobaric weapons, the Germans were experimenting with them at the end of the war. Could they be made in this TL so they are ready to be applied to the Battlefield in 1950-52. Stick that in a warhead hey, how large would the warhead have to be to do at least 3 times the damage of a single V2 warhead.

It just seems that in order to have the war go on in 1950 you need a not entirely crazy leader, to have cool weapons and gadgetry you need a really crazy leader. It's very hard to find the balance, I need a Nazi George Bush.

To get a Germany that is unbroken by 1950, you need a much more intelligent use of the economy, and peace. You can't have the latter by 1950 with Nazi Germany without a dead Hitler or a lot of handwavium.

To get to the "gadgetry in the hands of a crazy leader" idea, it would be far more plausible to write a TL where the USSR is more successful, and meets the western Allies on the Rhine in the winter of 1944-1945. All the technology goes to Stalin, minus whichever scientists and engineers escape to the west. Then, add a few years to Stalin's life.

 

[Kongzilla]

I'm all for Dead Hitler. The Question is who would be able to do this, the guy named Schact seemed pretty with it but everyone ignored him.

 

[Julian]

But with a germany looking more into controlling the world then taking it over, could Rocketry still be seen as a good option to strike at enemies in a way they would not be able to defend from. Maybe the new leader is very excited about rockets and making things go boom. If I can heal the Germans economy by the 40s I was hoping there would be a decade of tensions, where everyone knows a war is coming they just don't want it to happen. Everyone starts building up their weapons sort of like OTL.
.

Not really. Rocketry was far away from being an effective strategic weapons platform. Germany simply lacks the resources to sustain a decade's worth of development without crashing it's economy. And either way in the end it'll just end up getting seeded with anthrax by Britain if it tries to use WMDs.

 

[Kongzilla]

Couldn't the Germans have Anthrax as well, I mean could the steal a bit of Japans information and early Anthrax when they fall so couldn't they kind of do a MAD type scenario with Britian, you Anthrax me I Anthrax you type thing going on there.

 

[modelcitizen]

I read some of the first page, and I didn't even skim the rest...

Somehow, Hitler gets c__k-blocked in '38, and he gets contained sufficiently that his plans for the 1940s don't make it out of the country...

...until the 1950s.


By the time Hitler is able to break out of the box imposed by allies smart enough to keep him from starting another Great War, he's got some seriously dangerous WMDs.

In the interim, Hitler pushes his industrialists to have faster and bigger planes, cars, rockets...

By the 1950s, Hitler's researchers and builders have tuned the "research rockets" to be able to arc across an ocean.


Cities will be glowing in the dark by the time it wraps up.

 

[sloreck]

Absent Hitler you don't get WW2 - at all. Germany can't afford the massive rearmament that Hitler started, then paid for with smoke & mirrors and loot. By 1939 France and Britain were willing to let Versailles go - they had not enforced it when Germany re-entered the Rhineland, nor when the Luftwaffe was revealed etc. Simply by behaving itself Germany can rearm with a good army, an excellent air force, and an adequate navy and if it doesn't drive out intellectuals and Jews, forge ahead in science and economy. This results in Germany being the dominant continental power. Yes they have lost some territory to Poland, but differences over Danzig can be negotiated and the other spots will have to be swallowed.

Poland would much rather deal with a resurgent conservative (not Nazi) Germany than the communist USSR and a next door & friendly Germany is a much better guarantee against Soviet bullying than France or Britain. This doesn't make Poland love Germany but its pragmatism.

Absent Hitler going to war when he did (which means no Hitler in power for long if at all) any successor will not go to war in 1939. If Germany settles for the Versailles restrictions going away (which by 1939 had pretty much happened - plus the Anschluß) and did not go for Lebensraum & racial extermination of Untermenschen of all types I see no reason why there would be a "WW2" at all. Without the Red Army none of the states of Eastern Europe would ever get a communist government, and were Stalin to attack Poland, Hungary, or another border state the result would be a war with the USSR vs most/all of the states of Eastern Europe and Germany with France and Britain being anti-Soviet neutrals or even fighting against the USSR. Stalin knows he can't win this...

In the Pacific...a whole other issue. Basically by late 1941 the Japanese had to give up the war in China or attack SE Asia to get resources, which for various reasons would bring the US in to the war. If there is no war in Europe and the US and Britain (and even France and Holland) can concentrate on Japan....

 

[Kongzilla]

Couldn't the SU with it's multitude of 5 year plans lead to it being able to take on the Fascist Bloc. I mean it seemed like they were doing pretty well, and it looked like they were getting ready to be able to entirely support itself. And it also looks like they were always planning for a war. But I don't know that could be a consequence of the 30s build up although with the constant conflict of intereset of interests in this TL between Germany and Russia as well as the Nazi ideology of destroying Communism could lead to it happening as OTL forcing the Allies to build up their forces as well but to be honest I barely even know what I'm talking about.

With the Pacific war thing, by 41 the Soviets are muscling into Manchuria and so the Japanese have barely any resources to attack SE asia. Maybe The Allies loosen the Embargo and start supplying Japan Oil and weapons to try and damage the Soviets, the Soviets eventually take over Manchuria. Maybe the Japanese have a small civil war, the Military head honchos don't want to side with the Allies while the Civillian population is having the same response to the loss of Soviet-Japanese conflict the same way they took the loss of World War 2. Maybe not as extreme though the Emperor still remains but the Military comes under civillian control. It would be interesting to see a Japanese Military that is just as brave, with Allied supplied weapons and isn't run by Incompetent buffoons that now have a severe distaste of the Soviets and Potentially the Fascists.

If the Nazi party is in power and is in an economically stable position, there would probably be a lot of Legalized Discrimination against Jews and they would probably have all their businesses Nationalized or sold, their possessions taken and their monetary items requisitioned by the government including synagogues who would probably have all the valuables taken from them and then all the Jews would proceed to be kicked out of the country. There wouldn't be any Death Camps, Lebensraum or Racial extermination so that's a plus., the allies would also have 6 million supremely Loyal volunteers to draw upon for the Armed forces.