What if WW2 Was Delayed until the 50s
- Thread starter Kongzilla
- Start date
No. You want to have something else in power, fine, but the Nazis are not going to be moderate, patient, lucid, trustworthy, selfless, or any of the other qualities you might want of that stripe.
Germany might be better off in the short run. Provided they invest in technological development sufficiently, they will be technologically superior to the Allies. Assuming that tensions are rising, there will be an arms race of epic proportions, especially in the area of jet aircraft and nukes, but the Germans will have a clear head-start advantage.
Hitler will likely die during the war. He was already in poor health, and the stresses of managing a global war will be too much for him.
However, if the Germans develop nukes and the US and Britain follow suit, there will likely be no war, just a long-lasting Cold War.
Such a long-lasting war that drains the British economy, or having to deal with violent, determined, German-supported resistance throughout the empire and at the same time the arms race of the Cold War, the British Empire likely still crumbles. After the British lose India, they probably will more or less give up.
France likely loses it's colonial empire too, much like in OTL.
If the Soviet Union is forced into a longer war with more casualties, it may well collapse early. A Cold War-like standoff between the Allies and Germans will likely see it treated as an ally and given economic assistance.
Hitler will likely die during the war. He was already in poor health, and the stresses of managing a global war will be too much for him.
However, if the Germans develop nukes and the US and Britain follow suit, there will likely be no war, just a long-lasting Cold War.
Such a long-lasting war that drains the British economy, or having to deal with violent, determined, German-supported resistance throughout the empire and at the same time the arms race of the Cold War, the British Empire likely still crumbles. After the British lose India, they probably will more or less give up.
France likely loses it's colonial empire too, much like in OTL.
If the Soviet Union is forced into a longer war with more casualties, it may well collapse early. A Cold War-like standoff between the Allies and Germans will likely see it treated as an ally and given economic assistance.
Kongzilla
Banned
I have no Idea, I was hoping that they would be able to still enter power in 33 so that way everything prety much goes as OTL so Spanish civil war, Russian Purges and the rest, but since that probably wouldn't result in a war in the 50s and end up just being OTL it seems like they may have to come to power later.
Since the populace was probably still wanting revenge for Versailles, when the next election roles around in 38 whoever is in charge promises greatness instead of just going along with whatever the French and British want.
I'm no good with Politics and Economics, I prefer military feats and technology. So I would like to know more about those such things. Who would be the first to use Helicopters, would more advanced versions of the Wasserfall and other SAM be available by 1950 to contend with the the B-36. How many men would be involved in each army. Would America be drawn into the conflict first to stop Communism and then eventually on the other fronts to stop Fascism.
Could the Americans step into help the Nationalists if it comes down to that, death to communism and all.
Since the populace was probably still wanting revenge for Versailles, when the next election roles around in 38 whoever is in charge promises greatness instead of just going along with whatever the French and British want.
I'm no good with Politics and Economics, I prefer military feats and technology. So I would like to know more about those such things. Who would be the first to use Helicopters, would more advanced versions of the Wasserfall and other SAM be available by 1950 to contend with the the B-36. How many men would be involved in each army. Would America be drawn into the conflict first to stop Communism and then eventually on the other fronts to stop Fascism.
Could the Americans step into help the Nationalists if it comes down to that, death to communism and all.
I don't think nukes would be developed. Getting them in that timeframe was insanely expensive and nobody was entirely sure if they would work. I'd say such an ATL will start with no nukes, but everyone will rush their programs to get them, so it might very well end with nuclear attacks.
Helicopters, at least over the battlefield, seem a bad idea for that timeframe. Infantry would be able to defend from them rather easily and the skies would be swarming with fighters. They would work as liasion, asw, and medevac.
I also don't think SAMs would be available - it's a matter of looking how advanced sams were in the late '40s, early '50s and then taking back several years in development.
Helicopters, at least over the battlefield, seem a bad idea for that timeframe. Infantry would be able to defend from them rather easily and the skies would be swarming with fighters. They would work as liasion, asw, and medevac.
I also don't think SAMs would be available - it's a matter of looking how advanced sams were in the late '40s, early '50s and then taking back several years in development.
This is a Germany that wasn't ahead OTL in 1939, why would it be ahead TTL after ruining its economy still further?
Kongzilla
Banned
Well there would be a period of cold war from 1940-1950 so maybe some things can be brought up to standard. I was thinking the different things strategies used by each side would sort of push it.
With the death of the Guy pushing the use of heavy bombers, Rockets take it's place so that way when the eventual war with the USSR takes place they can hit anywhere they want. Without nukes this is fairly hard and is instead turned into into chemical and biological deliverance systems after that SAMs can become important maybe if French and British plans to drop anthrax on the German population is somehow discovered.
Also would Germanys army be entirely mechanized, so no Horses or anything. Since the Germans are still going to be doing Blitzkrieg will the prime formation be PanzerGrenadiers. Combined with Panzerfausts and Assault rifles, good training and after Two decades of Brainwashing fanaticizm. They could be a very hardy fighting force. Although I'm probably wrong.
With the death of the Guy pushing the use of heavy bombers, Rockets take it's place so that way when the eventual war with the USSR takes place they can hit anywhere they want. Without nukes this is fairly hard and is instead turned into into chemical and biological deliverance systems after that SAMs can become important maybe if French and British plans to drop anthrax on the German population is somehow discovered.
Also would Germanys army be entirely mechanized, so no Horses or anything. Since the Germans are still going to be doing Blitzkrieg will the prime formation be PanzerGrenadiers. Combined with Panzerfausts and Assault rifles, good training and after Two decades of Brainwashing fanaticizm. They could be a very hardy fighting force. Although I'm probably wrong.
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How do you supposed Germany is going to fuel these mythical all mechanised armies?
You really should stop typing one handed.
You really should stop typing one handed.
Nazi Germany was running on a very finite amount of time before it's rearmament policies drove it's economy into the ground. Even then Britain, France, and the Soviet Union were outpacing it in every field. If Nazi Germany changes it's rearmament policies then it falls even further behind it's opponents, and will be a nonentity in terms of military strength by the late 1940s. If it continues on the same course it collapses well before the 1950s.
It might be possible with a much smaller German army that was based around "a few technicians" instead of "Like WWI, only with more tanks!"
But that would take someone other than Hitler, who thought moar divisions was a gain. Might even take something other than the Nazis in general. Fascism is more concerned with the noises than the nuances of armies.
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Except that World Wars aren't won by small armies; they're won by the side which is able to deploy and concentrate material effectively; air, sea, and land.
With Hitler removed from power in 1938 and a less insane but still revanchist leadership (the Amy) in power, the idea of a later war is feasible. Germany will have to wait since the Nazoi regime's downfall will probably usher in a brief, nasty civil war or something like that. Democracy won't come back; the Army could even call the Kaiser's son to assume the throne when his father eventually dies in his golden exile.
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Since no one ever tried the "small, elite, all-mechanicized army of technicians", I don't think we can say that.
More to the point, the idea that Germany should prepare for a war it can't won on its own is ridiculous.
Why not? Throught the second world war the lesson proved time and again that the side that can concentrate material would achieve victory. Soviet operational theory by 1944 and 1945 was based specifically upon this by using deception to mask their intentions, concentrating forces in their main assault sectors on an overwhelming scale (5-10:1 iin artillery, tanks, and men) and then blowing the front apart. Now obviously you can argue that an elite army could simply deploy it's reserves to counter an enemy penetration, and could do so effectively, but this only plays into the STAVKA's overall strategic concept. The Soviets would still have large reserve formations to commit along sections of the front which would now lack effective reserves, driving those back. The net effective is that the German "strategic depth" would be reduced a chunk at a time, eventually leading to it's complete defeat.
What about this, Hitler dies, Germany's DOES'NT recover, the Nazi leadership dithers and fart around trying to fix their sinking ship with the economic equivalent of duct tape and prayers and drops into a North Korea like state of extreme government crackdowns and a rising military at the expense of the greater economy. Leadership becomes more unstable and draconian, clinging onto power while violently putting down riots by the impoverished German population. This carries on way longer than it should (much to the amusement of the USSR and France) Faced with total collapse, whoever is in charge decides one last delusional chance at clinging onto power by focusing German frustration and it's military on it's neighbors for some flimsy Causi Belli, sparking a bloody but brief war.
Would something like this work? Nazi Germany does so much worse which I think is a distinct possibility!
Would something like this work? Nazi Germany does so much worse which I think is a distinct possibility!
Except that mass alone is useless - see WwI. If I had a choice between half a million men who were trained, equipped, and prepared to the highest levels possible in 1940, and invading Russia with an army over three and a half million but which has to depend on 625,000 horses - I'm going to take the mechanized army.
The German army in 1944-1945 is not "a small army of technicians" trained and equipped accordingly, it's the understrength remnant of a "WWI but with more tanks!" army.
So when both sides are using mass, obviously the side which can "systematically (apply) overwhelming force" wins - but that proves nothing on whether a smaller, better German army would have been better off than an army that still lacked the numbers and was under-equipped and under-mechanized.
"Highest levels possible in 1940" implies either an earlier start to the war (degrading technological advancement due to wartime necessity with the tradeoff of increased real-world training,) or ignoring France and the Benelux and starting Fall Weiss & Barbarossa simultaneously, with slightly more of what was used for the OTL 1940 invasions. In essence, the Heer can do one pretty thrust into Belarus, and fall to pieces between trying to subdue the Poles and fend off the human wave attacks by the USSR.
Half a million, towed by better trucks and SdKfz 251's? They never worked out the reliability issues of the Gewehr 41, so even rushing that is out, and they're still using K98's, MP40's, and MG34's. The early variants of the Panzer IV are possible, however it takes war lessons to improve them to a level that would be able to match the KV-1&2, let alone the T-34.
We're not talking OTL current US capabilities by delaying the onset of the war a decade, either. The economic issues are far too pressing. Concentrating tech, arming a smaller number in a better fashion, AND sustaining the economy are nearly as mutually exclusive for Germany as arming millions with inadequate equipment.
Also consider the distraction projects in many directions at this time. To spin up tech further, your POD would need to include consolidation.
A smaller Heer would have been better off, in peacetime. Basically, you're proposing the end result of a wank a lot of Germanophiles approve of: A Germany that gets, (via democracy and diplomacy) 1914 borders, plus Sudentenland and Austria, minus Alsace-Lorraine, and integration into a NATO/EU arrangement against the USSR. The POD would probably then have to be before Hindenburg's death.
In essence, a Germany that:
-Gets a charasmatic leader no later than the same time as OTL
-That leader quickly gets passage of an Enabling Act
-Aforementioned leader gets all of Hitler's land gains (minus non-Sudenten Czechoslovak territory, yes, I know that means losing the Skoda works and everything else, but this is for the diplomatic victory,) plus that particular corridor
-Leader is sane enough to step down from a government position and call a constitutional convention.
-Resultant Germany is democratic and exploring alliance with the rest of the West, even considering offering them support in a war against Japan.
Honestly, that's a Germanwank I'd love to read. It's also ASB-tastic.
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Kongzilla
Banned
I was kind of thinking maybe it's not the Germans that cause this war. So they have a smaller peace time army so they don't have to blow their economy arming millions, except for maybe a fleet. So Then WW2 starts and they begin a rearmament. Although I'm not sure how a cold war would affect the sizes of armies. I think that would be Frances problem. Instead of trying to train 60 divisios with good weapons, they would try and equip 100 diviosions with sub standard weapons because they will be facing 2 large enemies.