What if WW2 started in 1938, Invasion of Czechoslovakia

I've seen some commercial war games that modeled the 1938 war between Czechoslovakia & Germany. None of those seemed to also model the larger strategic possibilities. Specifically war along the German French frontier, and more generally along the Polish & Hungarian frontiers. Anyone know of any games that model this larger scope of a German Czechoslovakian war.
 
I've seen some commercial war games that modeled the 1938 war between Czechoslovakia & Germany. None of those seemed to also model the larger strategic possibilities. Specifically war along the German French frontier, and more generally along the Polish & Hungarian frontiers. Anyone know of any games that model this larger scope of a German Czechoslovakian war.
I have seen online Czechoslovakia 1938 published in Command mag 1993. But it had only territory of Czech and Moravia. Not even attack from Bratislava bridgehead towards Vienna is possible, due to map, it seems. :)

Edit: There was scenario Czechoslovakia 1938 in Panzer General game though, which included limited number of Hungarian and Polish units.
 
The Harry Turtledove novel "The War That Came Early" is a pretty good example of how a WW2 in 1938 could have gone out. I suggest you should check it out.
 
In the situation where the Czechsoslovaks and French (without the Brits) are fighting Germany, what are the odds that Germany can defeat the Czechoslovaks before the French can inflict serious damage? Can they punch Czechoslovakia out of the war before concentrating on the French?

And how likely is it that Poland would join on the Czechoslovak side? My impression is that Poland was extremely concerned about the Soviets, and it would be unlikely to divert their focus from their east in this sort of scenario, even in exchange for Teschen and settling all their territorial disputes with Germany. But perhaps I am wrong about that?

fasquardon
 
The Harry Turtledove novel "The War That Came Early" is a pretty good example of how a WW2 in 1938 could have gone out. I suggest you should check it out.
Well regarding Czechoslovakia its crap. Firstly Czechoslovakia was fully mobilized, and army was in positions, secondly Slovaks wouldn’t rebell as he used it in book. It would Germans from month to three to defeat Czechoslovakia . Factories would be destroyed and there wouldn’t be armaments for 40-50 divisions. By throwing Czechoslovakia to the wolves France and Britain shot themselves to the foot.

After Czechoslovakia is defeated there wouldn’t be German advence on Paris.
 
In the situation where the Czechsoslovaks and French (without the Brits) are fighting Germany, ...

The Brits look so weak in terms of ground and air forces in autumn 1938 they are not much of a factor anyway. I'd also hazard a blockade would be slow to take effect if started in Oct 1938.

what are the odds that Germany can defeat the Czechoslovaks before the French can inflict serious damage? Can they punch Czechoslovakia out of the war before concentrating on the French? ...

To answer that serious information on the French plans and mobilization are needed. There were significant differences between this date & 1940. among other things half the French AF would not be stood down to retrain the crew in new models.

And how likely is it that Poland would join on the Czechoslovak side? My impression is that Poland was extremely concerned about the Soviets, and it would be unlikely to divert their focus from their east in this sort of scenario, even in exchange for Teschen and settling all their territorial disputes with Germany. But perhaps I am wrong about that?
...

As has been mentioned earlier, the Poles understood France was their best friend. They'd be reluctant to take action that would leave them without that ally, or Britain if available. the Polish actions of March 1939 were based on the fact the French were doing nothing proactive and were not expected to do anything in the foreseeable future. France taking positive action against Germany is exactly what Polands leaders hoped for, reviving the Little Entente was to their advantage.
 
In the situation where the Czechsoslovaks and French (without the Brits) are fighting Germany, what are the odds that Germany can defeat the Czechoslovaks before the French can inflict serious damage? Can they punch Czechoslovakia out of the war before concentrating on the French?

And how likely is it that Poland would join on the Czechoslovak side? My impression is that Poland was extremely concerned about the Soviets, and it would be unlikely to divert their focus from their east in this sort of scenario, even in exchange for Teschen and settling all their territorial disputes with Germany. But perhaps I am wrong about that?

fasquardon
If France is acting same way as it was in 1939, 1 ton3 months till Czechoslovakia is defeated. Poland would be probably neutral and possibly occupy some territories with Cs consent, which Cs army would clear due to retreat, so for example Germans would find Polish troops in Tesen instead of Cs.
 
The Brits look so weak in terms of ground and air forces in autumn 1938 they are not much of a factor anyway. I'd also hazard a blockade would be slow to take effect if started in Oct 1938.



To answer that serious information on the French plans and mobilization are needed. There were significant differences between this date & 1940. among other things half the French AF would not be stood down to retrain the crew in new models.



As has been mentioned earlier, the Poles understood France was their best friend. They'd be reluctant to take action that would leave them without that ally, or Britain if available. the Polish actions of March 1939 were based on the fact the French were doing nothing proactive and were not expected to do anything in the foreseeable future. France taking positive action against Germany is exactly what Polands leaders hoped for, reviving the Little Entente was to their advantage.
If French are acting differently against 1939, and Germans will need to pull troops from Czechoslovak front, then there would be probably secret negotiations between Paris and Warsaw how much of German Silesia they can bit off. Benes already kind of offered Czech parts of Tesin town and area around if Poles stay neutral.
 
To answer that serious information on the French plans and mobilization are needed. There were significant differences between this date & 1940. among other things half the French AF would not be stood down to retrain the crew in new models.

Another reason for me to learn French then...

As has been mentioned earlier, the Poles understood France was their best friend. They'd be reluctant to take action that would leave them without that ally, or Britain if available. the Polish actions of March 1939 were based on the fact the French were doing nothing proactive and were not expected to do anything in the foreseeable future. France taking positive action against Germany is exactly what Polands leaders hoped for, reviving the Little Entente was to their advantage.

Hm. And it does seem that Poland and the SU had a non-aggression pact at this point in time, so this may be more likely than I'd thought.

I wonder if the Soviets would go after the Baltic states while the rest of Europe was distracted with the Germans...

If France is acting same way as it was in 1939, 1 ton3 months till Czechoslovakia is defeated. Poland would be probably neutral and possibly occupy some territories with Cs consent, which Cs army would clear due to retreat, so for example Germans would find Polish troops in Tesen instead of Cs.

Hm. Wasn't a big factor in their choices in 1939 that they were putting off mobilization until they knew Britain was committed on their side?

I guess something similar could happen here - France is more aggressive, but still wants to secure British help, so they do everything they can to not look like warmongers while trying to secure British guarantees, then give up as it becomes increasingly clear that Britain will not join them in guaranteeing Czechoslovakia... If that diplomatic game drags on long enough, the Germans could perhaps "get the drop" on the French.

fasquardon
 
Hm. Wasn't a big factor in their choices in 1939 that they were putting off mobilization until they knew Britain was committed on their side?

I guess something similar could happen here - France is more aggressive, but still wants to secure British help, so they do everything they can to not look like warmongers while trying to secure British guarantees, then give up as it becomes increasingly clear that Britain will not join them in guaranteeing Czechoslovakia... If that diplomatic game drags on long enough, the Germans could perhaps "get the drop" on the French.

fasquardon
Poland? I believe there was some postponing in mobilization. Czechoslovakia in other side mobilized on time. Hermans totally lost chance for surprise attack. Well after all Czechoslovak army was already from at least mid of September fighting German terrorists and SS units which supported them.
 
how prepared were the Wallies for war in 38? I mean the Germans may be operating Panzer IIs but IIRC the Allied forces were really unprepared with the French having if I'm not misremembering my number about ~60 MS406 fighters and the Brits only having a single squadron of Hawker Hurricanes. The two French DLMs at the time was little more than a couple of Brigades of light tanks and there were little more than 100 S35 tanks by the time of Munich
 
Poland? I believe there was some postponing in mobilization. Czechoslovakia in other side mobilized on time. Hermans totally lost chance for surprise attack. Well after all Czechoslovak army was already from at least mid of September fighting German terrorists and SS units which supported them.

No, the last part of my last post was musing about France - as I remember they were putting off mobilization while they tried to convince the British to commit.

fasquardon
 
No, the last part of my last post was musing about France - as I remember they were putting off mobilization while they tried to convince the British to commit.

fasquardon
Czechoslovakia fully mobilized September 23rd at 22.20 CET. France partially mobilized shortly after. Czechoslovak had week fully prepare mobilized forces, field fortifications were dug, air force was dispersed at field aerodromes. Interestingly in Eastern Slovakia and Ruthenia camps for foreign volunteers were created. Embassies in Yugoslavia, Romania and US were reporting thousands of interested.
 
Czechoslovakia fully mobilized September 23rd at 22.20 CET. France partially mobilized shortly after. ...

Do you have any well sourced information on this 'partial' mobilization?

... Czechoslovak had week fully prepare mobilized forces, field fortifications were dug, air force was dispersed at field aerodromes. Interestingly in Eastern Slovakia and Ruthenia camps for foreign volunteers were created. Embassies in Yugoslavia, Romania and US were reporting thousands of interested.

The foreign volunteers thing is really interesting. Anyplace I can read more about that ?
 
Do you have any well sourced information on this 'partial' mobilization?
For English written source check this:
https://books.google.com/books?id=OaRF5yLeuZoC&pg=PA352&lpg=PA352&dq=French+partial+mobilization+1938&source=bl&ots=EXD753VHGf&sig=_ldL_-XPseuifKeEK1CqtqXTn0w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSnoSBrJzZAhXIzlkKHQXcDv4Q6AEIPTAF#v=onepage&q=French partial mobilization 1938&f=false

but it is mentioned also on wiki article about Godesberg memorandum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godesberg_Memorandum

The foreign volunteers thing is really interesting. Anyplace I can read more about that ?
Not much sources on that. Most in Czech or Slovak. According to article I read some documents were possibly destroyed in March 14th 1939 (or even prior??) in order not to fell into German hands. Many volunteers were also Jewish and German refugees. Actually this was one of first conflict with between Czechoslovakia and Nazi Germany - taking in their political refugees.
This is very good article on topic, site is run by Czech military historians.
http://armada.vojenstvi.cz/predvalecna/mobilizace/3.htm
 
... Many volunteers were also Jewish and German refugees. Actually this was one of first conflict with between Czechoslovakia and Nazi Germany - taking in their political refugees.
...

Some of the refugees from Germany found their way into the Foreign Legion. However it appears in France the majority of the men fit for military service were confined to refugee camps along with anyone else suspect to the assorted French political factions. This was convient for the Gestapo post Armistice in 1940 as the bulk of the German refugees were enemies of the Reich as well, & there they were already behind wire & under guard.
 
Some of the refugees from Germany found their way into the Foreign Legion. However it appears in France the majority of the men fit for military service were confined to refugee camps along with anyone else suspect to the assorted French political factions. This was convient for the Gestapo post Armistice in 1940 as the bulk of the German refugees were enemies of the Reich as well, & there they were already behind wire & under guard.
Didn’t German/ Jewish refugees in Britain had hard time to find their way into Armed Forces even when they wanted? I know there was some conflicts if to take Sudetenland Germans in Czechoslovak Army in exile.
Czechoslovak army in Britain had some national problems between Czech and Slovaks already.
 
I don't know about Britain. Locally in the US a German Jewish pilot was rejected for service in the Army and Navy, despite his many documented hours and credentials as a flight instructor. On receipt of his last rejection notice he buzzed downtown & flew his single engine plane under the Main St bridge. Some versions had him doing stunt maneuvers over the ROTC armory on the Purdue University campus.
 
Well till war started even Czechoslovak pilots in France had iption to enter Legion or wait with small financial support from Cs embassy for war to start.

There fere some former Czechoslovak interbrigadists who evacuated to Britain but refuse to serve in Cs army in Britain due to “International” influence. They were later sent to mines or tomdonfield works. After USSR was attacked they wanted to join but many had problems. Remember one Cs. pilot who only managed to enter Cs squadron of RAF sometimes in late 1942. He later transferred to Cs fighter regiment in USSR. Funny is he was prosecuted by communist aftern 1948 because he served in Cs army in exile in west.
 
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