What if William won at Hastings and Harold killed?

The two sides that day were fairly evenly matched, so the battle could have gone either way. William had cavalry, but the English, of course, had the home advantage. What if a stray arrow had killed Harold sometime in the afternoon, and the English resistance eventually crumbled?

When news reached London, panic would certainly have set in. A faction of the nobles would probably had advocated surrender, though others would have proclaimed Edgar the Atheling as king. As the last surviving member of the House of Wessex he would have been the only possible candidate, but as an untried boy he was hardly suitable to lead the nation in a war for its survival so I imaganine his nominal "reign" would have lasted merely weeks, while William made his slow progress from the south coast to London, burning and pillaging all the way in an act of calculated frightfulness such as he had practiced in earlier campaigns in Normandy.

Inevitably, the English establishment would have caved in, and William would have been accepted as king by Christmas at the latest. At first, through lack of choice, he would have had to rule through the existing organs of government, and it may have seemed as if nothing would really change. But he had a big problem: thousands of followers who had joined his army, expecting land as a reward. First of all he parcelled out the lands of those English nobles who had stood against him at Hastings, but it was nowhere nearly enough, so, within a year or two, who would begin dispossessing the entire English landed classes. This would inevitably have led to revolts, and William, growing ever more cynical and ruthless, would doubtlessly have put these down with genocidal barbarity.

I imagine him ruling England with an iron fist for twenty years or so before dying a bloated, hated man. I also suspect that his patrimony would be divided, with his eldest son Robert getting Normandy, and the extremely unpleasant William, his second son, getting England. He would found a line of monarchs that would reign over England to this day.

The consequences for England would be catastrophic and profound. With all their aristocrats and middle ranking landowner expelled, replaced by Frenchmen, the English would become a nation of serfs in their own country. Their language itself would be altered beyond recognition, filled with French words and phrases, and their legal system denied to them. The new, militaristic ruling class would not be content with England, but would go on to conquer Wales, Ireland and Scotland, and eventually whole continents beyond, such as North America and Australia, setting up colonies everywhere. This "British Empire" would rule the globe for hundreds of years, spreading its language and culture everywhere, though I suspect it would eventually fragment, and the section of it that controlled the best resources, i.e. North America, would eventually come to dominate.
 
The two sides that day were fairly evenly matched, so the battle could have gone either way. William had cavalry, but the English, of course, had the home advantage. What if a stray arrow had killed Harold sometime in the afternoon, and the English resistance eventually crumbled?

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The consequences for England would be catastrophic and profound. With all their aristocrats and middle ranking landowner expelled, replaced by Frenchmen, the English would become a nation of serfs in their own country. Their language itself would be altered beyond recognition, filled with French words and phrases, and their legal system denied to them. The new, militaristic ruling class would not be content with England, but would go on to conquer Wales, Ireland and Scotland, and eventually whole continents beyond, such as North America and Australia, setting up colonies everywhere. This "British Empire" would rule the globe for hundreds of years, spreading its language and culture everywhere, though I suspect it would eventually fragment, and the section of it that controlled the best resources, i.e. North America, would eventually come to dominate.

Welcome aboard Kenelm. Question: Are you presenting this scenario as a DBWI?
 
I think you are getting a little carried away. Although William, from what we know of him, was a tough customer, I really doubt he'd be so foolish as to try to totally rework the English government. Nor do I think the English nobility would have any reason to rebel; they had faced foreign rulers before in the form of Cnute, to name just one. Besides, the English already had extensive trade relations with the low country, and the Norman coast. I doubt William would be seen as all THAT foreign!

Y best guess is that he rules for a time; let's say 20 years for a good round number, and then the throne passes to one of his sons; which ever would be most willing to appease the English aristocracy. These Norman rulers ate fully Anglicized within two generations, tops.

On a side note; why do you think William would die 'bloated' and hated? Odd choice of words. I hadn't realizes he was known for any weight issues, but i could certainly be wrong. An alt-version of Cyngwulf the Fat? LOL :)
 
Ugh, if I was a mod I would honestly delete every single DBWI thread.

If this were reddit, I would upvote your statement 1000x. Baring that, I would force them into their own sub forum. Next best option is to post the most insane responses possible messing up the canon for the thread.

I would not act like a child and just ignore a thread you dislike



On topic:

I could see the north centered around York pulling of a Wessex (Great Heathen Army times) and standing as the last English kingdom until eventually the Norman yolk is removed just like the Dannish and Norse before it.
 
OOC: this a DBWI, and it's considered bad form to predict things go just as OTL.

Ugh, if I was a mod I would honestly delete every single DBWI thread.

OOC: or alternatively you could do what everyone else does when they see a thread they aren't interested in and simply not look at it.


I agree with quite. A bit of this. If the Normans succeed in conquering England the AngloSaxons won't revolt anymore than they did under the Norse, especially since there is still a Scandinavian King who could try to claim the throne.

Anyway, a Norman England would likely be far more interested in mainland Europe rather than looking across the Nordic Sea at Scandinavia. It would also likely prevent the Anglo-Saxon attack on Scandinavia of the fourteenth century that led to the Thirty Years War. Though there might be one in France if the Normans decide to use the wealth and power of England to enforce their claims to France. Overall probably a smaller, but richer English Empire depending on how any wars with France go.

This also means the French King might have a harder time uniting the country since he won't be able to seize Normandy ITTL, and would have a more powerful opponent even if it doesn't come to war.

The HRE probably centralizes on schedule, or maybe a little later without a stronger France to push them toward it. When the Mongols of Ghenghis Khan ride East there may not be a united nation to stop them though, which could be disastrous.
 
OOC: this a DBWI, and it's considered bad form to predict things go just as OTL.



OOC: or alternatively you could do what everyone else does when they see a thread they aren't interested in and simply not look at it.



I agree with quite. A bit of this. If the Normans succeed in conquering England the AngloSaxons won't revolt anymore than they did under the Norse, especially since there is still a Scandinavian King who could try to claim the throne.

Anyway, a Norman England would likely be far more interested in mainland Europe rather than looking across the Nordic Sea at Scandinavia. It would also likely prevent the Anglo-Saxon attack on Scandinavia of the fourteenth century that led to the Thirty Years War. Though there might be one in France if the Normans decide to use the wealth and power of England to enforce their claims to France. Overall probably a smaller, but richer English Empire depending on how any wars with France go.

This also means the French King might have a harder time uniting the country since he won't be able to seize Normandy ITTL, and would have a more powerful opponent even if it doesn't come to war.

The HRE probably centralizes on schedule, or maybe a little later without a stronger France to push them toward it. When the Mongols of Ghenghis Khan ride East there may not be a united nation to stop them though, which could be disastrous.

I think ot would really depend on how long the Norman rulers of England hold Normandy. The one thing I agree with the OP about is that William would likely give the lands of Normandy to his second son (whose make escapes me currently). If the linw breaks into two branches the easily, I see the Norman kings becoming Anglisized fairly quickly and resuming the more traditional English fixation on Scandinavia, rather than turning their attention towards the South.

On a side note, I wonder if a Norman victoryat Hastings would hamper Norman adventurism by saplings strength and manpower away from Normandy and their little adventures.
 
Which is the senior part of the inheritance? the Duchy or England? William the Younger was a manipulator and managed to sell both Robert and Henry down the river in OTL.(which did eventually lead to him losing Normandy to a Franco/Breton alliance in the 1090s as he had doublecrossed everybody!) He would do the same if the Bastard had conquered England and have got which ever was considered to be the senior inheritance.

Robert might actually have gone down better with the English.

Would Canmore make a grab for the English throne for his son? He only didn't do it in OTL because Harold scared him. A just about established William with not much army left after the massacre of both sides at Senlache would be a much more tempting target.
 
Obviously, as time goes on and history diverges from what we know, speculations have, perforce, to become more general. I think it's pretty clear, though, that the Chinese will resume their natural place as rulers of the world (due to their numbers) after the fragmentation of the "British Empire" into rival, if culturally allied, states, and so will face the alien invasion of 2012 alone. It's extremely debatable if they would have won, under such circumstances.
 
Obviously, as time goes on and history diverges from what we know, speculations have, perforce, to become more general. I think it's pretty clear, though, that the Chinese will resume their natural place as rulers of the world (due to their numbers) after the fragmentation of the "British Empire" into rival, if culturally allied, states, and so will face the alien invasion of 2012 alone. It's extremely debatable if they would have won, under such circumstances.

Wow; is "alien invasion" what the far right is calling the refugees from the collapsing Chinese Empire now!? I know there have been real difficulties in absorbing the vast numbers od them, but this fear that they are going to overwhelm Western civilization is absurd. People, please keep your sino-phobia out of this discussion!
 
I think ot would really depend on how long the Norman rulers of England hold Normandy. The one thing I agree with the OP about is that William would likely give the lands of Normandy to his second son (whose make escapes me currently). If the linw breaks into two branches the easily, I see the Norman kings becoming Anglisized fairly quickly and resuming the more traditional English fixation on Scandinavia, rather than turning their attention towards the South.

On a side note, I wonder if a Norman victoryat Hastings would hamper Norman adventurism by saplings strength and manpower away from Normandy and their little adventures.

Hmm... Yes you might be right. I was working off the assumption he would view the French holdings higher, but upon reflection that's unlikely. England was a wealthy nation that was far enough away from Europe to not get dragged into their squabbles even if the rulers have other holdings, but the Scandinavians aren't going to stop their attacks until the English can effectively counterattack.

Though it might well sap their strength, which could also mean their kingdom in Sicily falls apart earlier without the manpower boost it got after France seized the land at the end of the century.

Obviously, as time goes on and history diverges from what we know, speculations have, perforce, to become more general. I think it's pretty clear, though, that the Chinese will resume their natural place as rulers of the world (due to their numbers) after the fragmentation of the "British Empire" into rival, if culturally allied, states, and so will face the alien invasion of 2012 alone. It's extremely debatable if they would have won, under such circumstances.

What are you on about? The collapse of the alliance between Scotland and England isn't a "fragmentation of the British Empire" anymore than the breaking off of relations between Castille and Spain was a breakdown in the French Empire. Amongst other things because neither "Empire" has ever existed. You could argue the separation of Poland from the rest of the HRE was a fragmentation of the Holy Roman Empire, but even then it was two countries under one ruler rather than a single united nation.

And by what measure was China ever ruler of the world? Managing to force the islands around it into tributary status and fight with Russia over that frozen wasteland they both claim isn't world domination. Hell, the Romano/Turkish Empire just nine years ago managed to drive them out of the Indian Ocean. Hardly the strength of a world hegemon.

And aliens, really?

OOC: aliens? Really?
 
Remember folks that there is only one yesterday but many tomorrows! For all of us Harold beat William but we might not all be from the same timeline. However I have to agree with the statement about the aliens we'd never be that overt about being here!:D
 
Remember folks that there is only one yesterday but many tomorrows! For all of us Harold beat William but we might not all be from the same timeline. However I have to agree with the statement about the aliens we'd never be that overt about being here!:D

OCC: Actually, we are. All participants are in the same alt-TL year 2014 looking back at a specific moment in time. This gets more and more difficult the further back in time "the event" is/was, but it's the only way a DBWI can avoid devolving into a jumbled chaotic mess of contradicting posts.
 
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