What if Wildcats completely replaced Brewster Buffaloes in Oct 1941?

There was one version of the Buffalo with stellar performance, the F2A-2, with a good engine, 4 .50's and 160 gal. of fuel. 344 mph. All others had very poor criminally rebuilt engines, or too much ammunition, or 240 gal. of fuel. True, the good one lacked armor and self-sealing tanks, but it performed well. If it had a smaller tank, self-sealing, and armor plate, there might have been a contender, but there wasn't. That would be the one with fans. The F2A-2 didn't enter combat.
 
IF and when this timeline reaches June of 1942

The USMC fighter wing that originally had 21 Brewster F2A Buffalos will have instead hopefully 21 F4F-3A Wildcats on Midway...
This would be added to the original OOB of only 7 Wildcats that was available on the Island for the up and coming Battle for Midway...

Maybe this fighter wing of 28 Wildcats will stay combat effective just long enough to cut some Vals and Kates out of the picture before the Zeke (Zero) escort fighters with their huge numbers cut into them...

heh... One can only hope for the best....
 
IF and when this timeline reaches June of 1942

The USMC fighter wing that originally had 21 Brewster F2A Buffalos will have instead hopefully 21 F4F-3A Wildcats on Midway...
This would be added to the original OOB of only 7 Wildcats that was available on the Island for the up and coming Battle for Midway...

Maybe this fighter wing of 28 Wildcats will stay combat effective just long enough to cut some Vals and Kates out of the picture before the Zeke (Zero) escort fighters with their huge numbers cut into them...

heh... One can only hope for the best....


They will have, all Buffalos are replaced BY Oct 1941. There is not a single Buffalo in the US arsenal after that date.
 
This I think is accurate as I don't think upgrading that many fighters will have no impact. We are talking about 10-20 squadrons not 10-20 planes and the Buffalo as bad as it was was considerably better than the crap the DEI had. No it won't stop the Japanese but it could well cost them a few islands IMO.

It won't delay them very much, and won't "cost them a few islands." It may delay them by a day or two, but that's it.
 
It won't delay them very much, and won't "cost them a few islands." It may delay them by a day or two, but that's it.

It would be more than a day or two just by virtue of having more time to train with the aircraft, having an aircraft in the DEI that can actually stay in the air with a Zero for at least a short period and maybe win a combat, plus having aircraft that could provide cover for ships more that 100 miles offshore. Those things make the DEI harder for the Japanese, probably worth two or three weeks at least rather than a day or two. :p
 
It would be more than a day or two just by virtue of having more time to train with the aircraft, having an aircraft in the DEI that can actually stay in the air with a Zero for at least a short period and maybe win a combat, plus having aircraft that could provide cover for ships more that 100 miles offshore. Those things make the DEI harder for the Japanese, probably worth two or three weeks at least rather than a day or two. :p

Exactly and two or three weeks is costly to the Japanese that early in the war.
 
Actually, the Japanese were ahead of schedule when they kicked off the main campaign for the NEI. As soon as Manila fell, the Japanese pulled their 48th Division off of Luzon and gave it to the 16th Army, which was tasked with Java. That meant the NEI operation could go in a month early. And if there's a serious delay? Well, guess who shows up to lend a hand? Kido Butai: Carrier Divisions 1, 2, and 5. Any delay will be about two weeks at most. The NEI will still fall, no matter what the Allies do.
 
Actually, the Japanese were ahead of schedule when they kicked off the main campaign for the NEI. As soon as Manila fell, the Japanese pulled their 48th Division off of Luzon and gave it to the 16th Army, which was tasked with Java. That meant the NEI operation could go in a month early. And if there's a serious delay? Well, guess who shows up to lend a hand? Kido Butai: Carrier Divisions 1, 2, and 5. Any delay will be about two weeks at most. The NEI will still fall, no matter what the Allies do.

Nobody says it won't fall. What we are saying is that it will be delayed. You seem to be forgetting Japan didn't have plenty oil to burn. If it sends the Kido Butai it has to cut back on operations now or in its future. Japan was SERIOUSLY short of oil!
 
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The Japanese expected a six-to-eight month campaign, and had stockpiled enough fuel for that. Giving Kido Butai another drink under these circumstances isn't out of the question. They were ahead of schedule everywhere except the Philippines, if you'll recall. And the fact that they were ahead of schedule and had fuel to use enabled both Coral Sea and Midway.
 
The Japanese expected a six-to-eight month campaign, and had stockpiled enough fuel for that. Giving Kido Butai another drink under these circumstances isn't out of the question. They were ahead of schedule everywhere except the Philippines, if you'll recall. And the fact that they were ahead of schedule and had fuel to use enabled both Coral Sea and Midway.

Then maybe Coral Sea or Midway doesn't happen, which would be good for the Japanese. Not all changes have to go against the Japanese but changes there will be.
 
Maybe not Coral Sea, but definitely Midway. That was Yamamoto's plan, and though NGS (Naval General Staff) was opposed to it, once the Doolittle Raid went in, the operation was a go. But the Japanese Army wanted to land troops at Port Moresby, instead of going over the Owen Stanley Mountains, and the Navy was not only lifting them, but supporting them. The price Yamamoto had to pay for Coral Sea was sending Carrier Division 5 (Shokaku and Zuikaku) to support the operation. Sho is damaged and Zui's air group is shredded. Both unavailable for Midway-with well-known consequences.
 
In the end, if Wildcats had replaced the Buffalo, we would never have seen the Super Buffalo. Horsepower negates weight.
It's not my fault. PK gave me a bump.

Corncobbuffalo.png
 
Johnrankins said:
We are talking about 10-20 squadrons not 10-20 planes and the Buffalo as bad as it was was considerably better than the crap the DEI had. No it won't stop the Japanese but it could well cost them a few islands IMO.
This encapsulates the issue IMO. The objective isn't to save P.I. or Singapore, which probably can't be saved, it's delay the Japanese. Every division, regiment, squadron that's tied up is one not available for ops expanding the perimeter.

There's a bigger impact, too: logistics. Every IJA/IJN fighter that has to be replaced is one that can be interdicted in transit. Every IJA/IJN fighter damaged is one effectively lost, because the supply chain was never good, because SLOCs are under heavy interdiction, & because the Japanese were terrible at scrounging spares.
Johnrankins said:
Nobody says it won't fall. What we are saying is that it will be delayed. You seem to be forgetting Japan didn't have plenty oil to burn. If it sends the Kido Butai it has to cut back on operations now or in its future. Japan was SERIOUSLY short of oil!
Exactly. You expose the Kido Butai to attack from landplanes & submarines of all Allies. And you use oil Japan can't spare. More than that, in DEI, you extend the period between war's start & Japan getting any oil out, which moves forward the date IJN is immobilized for lack of fuel compared to OTL. You may also enable the Dutch to do more damage to oil drilling &/or refining facilities, which also denies Japan & moves the "sell by" date.
 
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Two problems: first, most of the subs are American. With those wretched Mark-14 torpedoes. Second, the Dutch were reluctant to destroy oil facilities until the last possible moment: the longer the oil's going, the more money to the cash-strapped Dutch Government in Exile. They did destroy facilites in a few places, but not enough. And one could see them holding off yet again "The Japanese have been delayed? Excellent! Keep the wells pumping and don't destroy them."
 
Two problems: first, most of the subs are American. With those wretched Mark-14 torpedoes. Second, the Dutch were reluctant to destroy oil facilities until the last possible moment: the longer the oil's going, the more money to the cash-strapped Dutch Government in Exile. They did destroy facilites in a few places, but not enough. And one could see them holding off yet again "The Japanese have been delayed? Excellent! Keep the wells pumping and don't destroy them."

1) The Mark-14 didn't ALWAYS fail, which was actually part of the problem. If it always failed it would have quickly been replaced. It worked enough times that people at the time could argue that the problem was the personal not the weapon. So they could well lose a transport or two in the two weeks.
2) The Dutch pumping oil another two weeks doesn't help the Japanese at all. They are still out the two weeks of oil.
 
1) The Mark-14 didn't ALWAYS fail, which was actually part of the problem. If it always failed it would have quickly been replaced. It worked enough times that people at the time could argue that the problem was the personal not the weapon. So they could well lose a transport or two in the two weeks.

ONE or two (at best). You do know the history of that fiasco, don't you? BuOrd (the USN's Bureau of Ordnance) blamed the sub skippers. The Skippers blamed BuOrd for saddling them with a weapon nearly useless. The fixes that were made were well after the NEI campaign ended (running too deep, crappy magnetic exploder, poorly designed contact exploder).....It took no less than Admiral King himself to light a fire under BuOrd's rear end to get them to admit the weapon was faulty: all fixes were ID'd and made in the field, it should be pointed out. Having several guys who worked on the Mark-14 be in senior leadership positions in the sub force didn't help any-not to mention their stubborn refusal to listen to their skippers, being reluctant to admit their work may have been faulty.
 
1) The Mark-14 didn't ALWAYS fail, which was actually part of the problem. If it always failed it would have quickly been replaced. It worked enough times that people at the time could argue that the problem was the personal not the weapon. So they could well lose a transport or two in the two weeks.

ONE or two (at best). You do know the history of that fiasco, don't you? BuOrd (the USN's Bureau of Ordnance) blamed the sub skippers. The Skippers blamed BuOrd for saddling them with a weapon nearly useless. The fixes that were made were well after the NEI campaign ended (running too deep, crappy magnetic exploder, poorly designed contact exploder).....It took no less than Admiral King himself to light a fire under BuOrd's rear end to get them to admit the weapon was faulty: all fixes were ID'd and made in the field, it should be pointed out. Having several guys who worked on the Mark-14 be in senior leadership positions in the sub force didn't help any-not to mention their stubborn refusal to listen to their skippers, being reluctant to admit their work may have been faulty.


One or two is what I said, maybe even three or four. It was a fiasco but let's not exagerate, they did work at times. Yes, the sub skippers did point it out but there were enough times that it did work that there was something to point to saying it was the crew's fault. That said it doesn't change the fact that Japan is likely to lose at least two or three weeks of oil.

Nor is it likely they are going to send for the carriers. As you said they were ahead of schedule. They don't know about OTL so don't know they could be doing better. I can picture the conversation now. JA: Please send us carriers to support us in the DEI JN: How far are you behind schedule? JA: We are ahead of schedule JN: Then why the hell are you bugging us? The Japanese Army would have to be behind schedule before they call in the Japanese Navy, probably by a week or two at least. It would be humilitating for the army to call on the navy to rescue them.
 
They would need the carriers anyway to supplement land-based air. Remember that Kido Butai did fly strikes during the Java campaign, and the Japanese Navy was the source of the Army's assault lift and covering forces. BOTH would be behind schedule and they'd have to adjust their plans accordingly.
 
Given how late the Wildcat came into production, is there any theoretical way the US COULD have replaced all Buffalos? Especially as they were short of planes, and a miraculous production of enough Wildcats for a 1-1 replacement would probably have left, what, 1/2 of the Buffalos still in service.
 
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