What if Wildcats completely replaced Brewster Buffaloes in Oct 1941?

Let's upgrade the Allies for a change. The US boosts Wildcat production enough that it replaces every Buffalo with a Wildcat by Oct 1941 and ships all its Buffaloes to the DEI. How does this change things? The US has a fairly decent upgrade for its planes and the DEI suddenly has quite a few more fighters. I admit they were getting obsolete but they were better than nothing.
 
Well this frees up at least about 60-80 Buffaloes from USN squadrons and another 160 or so from USMC squadrons.

So figure 220-240 additional fighters for either Australia, Singapore, or DEI all three of which wanted/needed more fighters.

Since Australia was at the point of turning trainers into fighters (the Boomerang), DEI was just transitioning from biplane fighters and Singapore was very light on anything resembling a modern fighter this has a fairly major impact in the early days of the war around these battles.

Almost as large an impact is the 220-240 better fighters the USN/USMC are now equipped with at the start of the war.

Having a fighter that gets the pilot back to base or carrier even if you have to dump the fighter afterwords makes a huge difference in getting experienced pilots. Both of these cases move in that direction, the Buffalo for all that it was a dog was tougher than what the Dutch or Australians were flying at the start of the war without this, so more of their pilots get home and have a chance to try again. The Wildcat was even tougher so more USN/USMC pilots that went down in a Buffalo make it back to base in a Wildcat and can try again in a different aircraft.

Overall bad news for the Japanese but it probably doesn't have much impact on the war at a macro level. Maybe no Guadalcanal because the Japanese are taking a bit longer on DEI because there is more air cover for the Allied ships. Maybe? Maybe Singapore holds out just a bit longer, but probably not a few fighters doesn't make that much difference there. Maybe Force Z gets air cover - except that was the personality/experience of Admiral Phillips not calling for air cover soon enough not so much the lack of air cover.

Tom.

Tom.
 
Let's upgrade the Allies for a change. The US boosts Wildcat production enough that it replaces every Buffalo with a Wildcat by Oct 1941 and ships all its Buffaloes to the DEI. How does this change things? The US has a fairly decent upgrade for its planes and the DEI suddenly has quite a few more fighters. I admit they were getting obsolete but they were better than nothing.

Well, sure, it's good for the Americans to get better planes. But the idea of "better than nothing" has its limits in combat. I suspect that we would see American pilots doing better early on (no surprise). But over Singapore, Australia and DEI men would be getting shot down in Buffaloes instead of whatever they were originally going to be shot down in, so not much difference there.
 
Well, sure, it's good for the Americans to get better planes. But the idea of "better than nothing" has its limits in combat. I suspect that we would see American pilots doing better early on (no surprise). But over Singapore, Australia and DEI men would be getting shot down in Buffaloes instead of whatever they were originally going to be shot down in, so not much difference there.

Buffaloes did shoot down some Japanese planes OTL and were better than the biplanes the DEI was flying. With some 240 of them there should be some additional Japanese planes shot down. If Singapore and DEI go slower the Austrailians might be able to hold on to Rabaul as the Japanese need the reinforcements there instead.
 
...were better than the biplanes the DEI was flying.
Well, yes, that is true.
If Singapore and DEI go slower...
I guess that just seems like an awfully big "if" to me. Better than biplanes, yes. By enough to slow the Japanese in significant degree? The Japanese would still have superior aircraft flown by experienced pilots and in greater numbers.

Let's leave the Buffalo's obsolescence aside for one moment. Does anyone know if there were enough good pilots available in Singapore and DEI to fly the things? I admit I have no knowledge of that.
 
Well, yes, that is true.

I guess that just seems like an awfully big "if" to me. Better than biplanes, yes. By enough to slow the Japanese in significant degree? The Japanese would still have superior aircraft flown by experienced pilots and in greater numbers.

Let's leave the Buffalo's obsolescence aside for one moment. Does anyone know if there were enough good pilots available in Singapore and DEI to fly the things? I admit I have no knowledge of that.

Well, there are always the pilots who aren't flying the even crappier planes they did OTL.
 
The solution to Singapore isnt to give the Buffalo's (which they'd need to find pilots for in any case), but rather to send fully trained Hurricane or Spitfire squadrons east from the UK.

By this time I believe the RAF had more fighter squadrons in the UK then they knew what to do with.
 
The solution to Singapore isnt to give the Buffalo's (which they'd need to find pilots for in any case), but rather to send fully trained Hurricane or Spitfire squadrons east from the UK.

By this time I believe the RAF had more fighter squadrons in the UK then they knew what to do with.

Of course Hurricanes would be much better for Singapore, no arguement there. It is more that the Buffaloes would be shipped somewhere and the most likely places are the DEI, Singapore or Austrailia. Hell, the Wildcats would be better but they aren't likely to get them either.
 

Cook

Banned
Since Australia was at the point of turning trainers into fighters (the Boomerang)...
You are thinking of the Wirraway. The Boomerang was designed as a fighter from the beginning and didn’t enter service until 1943.
 
The thing is giving the Dutch Buffaloes in October/November 1941 actually gives them a much better chance than they had OTL. They got their Buffaloes right before Japan attacked - in some cases days before they were attacked. The Dutch pilots were horribly unfamiliar with the F2As and in the great majority of the cases had never flown any aircraft as high performance at the Brewster. Giving them even 2-3 weeks let alone a month to familiarize themselves with the aircraft and you might very well see performance out of the Buffalo more like what the Fins saw against the Russians, and the Buffalo might be held up as one of the great little aircraft of WWII! :eek:

I also agree that having the British ship some Hurricanes to Singapore would make more sense than putting Buffaloes there. But that involves convincing Churchill to release the men and aircraft soon enough to get the pilots acclimated. OTL they did send two(?) squadrons but again they got to Singapore right before the Japanese attacked so they had zero prep time on site to be familiar with local conditions, which are just a bit different than northern Europe :rolleyes: and take some time to adjust to.

Tom.
 

Cook

Banned
If Singapore and DEI go slower the Austrailians might be able to hold on to Rabaul as the Japanese need the reinforcements there instead.
Rabaul was a high priority target for the Japanese in their first phase of operations; they allocated two aircraft carriers to support the initial attack there. It is too high a priority to delay because the other flank of the offensive south was going slowly.

Lark Force defending the island consisted of 1400 infantry soldiers with nothing supporting them, they were not going to hold and the brutal reality is that they were never expected to. The comment made at the time was that ‘this isn’t the first time a thousand men have been sent to die and it won’t be the last’.
 
The thing is giving the Dutch Buffaloes in October/November 1941 actually gives them a much better chance than they had OTL. They got their Buffaloes right before Japan attacked - in some cases days before they were attacked. The Dutch pilots were horribly unfamiliar with the F2As and in the great majority of the cases had never flown any aircraft as high performance at the Brewster. Giving them even 2-3 weeks let alone a month to familiarize themselves with the aircraft and you might very well see performance out of the Buffalo more like what the Fins saw against the Russians, and the Buffalo might be held up as one of the great little aircraft of WWII! :eek:

I also agree that having the British ship some Hurricanes to Singapore would make more sense than putting Buffaloes there. But that involves convincing Churchill to release the men and aircraft soon enough to get the pilots acclimated. OTL they did send two(?) squadrons but again they got to Singapore right before the Japanese attacked so they had zero prep time on site to be familiar with local conditions, which are just a bit different than northern Europe :rolleyes: and take some time to adjust to.

Tom.

Yeah, crappy as they are the buffaloes are going to be a pretty decent bump for Singapore and the DEI. There are 240 of them and they have a bare minimum of about a month, probably two of training for the latest arrivals. Since the US won't replace 240 planes overnight (This isn't an ASB scenario) they probably have at least 3 or 4 months of training with most of them.
 
Rabaul was a high priority target for the Japanese in their first phase of operations; they allocated two aircraft carriers to support the initial attack there. It is too high a priority to delay because the other flank of the offensive south was going slowly.

Lark Force defending the island consisted of 1400 infantry soldiers with nothing supporting them, they were not going to hold and the brutal reality is that they were never expected to. The comment made at the time was that ‘this isn’t the first time a thousand men have been sent to die and it won’t be the last’.

According to this article http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm the Japanese Army was reluctant to undertake operations in Rabaul. How much more reluctant would they be if they are having problems in Malyasia or the DEI? Rabaul is nice for the Japanese to have but the DEI are far more important. If they have to choose between the DEI and Rabaul the DEI wins every time. Considering they were undertaking this war on a shoestring it may come to that.
 
Well, there are always the pilots who aren't flying the even crappier planes they did OTL.

That's my question, though. Did Singapore and the DEI have those pilots available? I'm still shaking my head at the thought of making those poor sods fly against Zeros in those things, but as you point out they'd be (urp!) better than nothing. As long as you're looking for little more than a non-suicidal delaying action.
 
That's my question, though. Did Singapore and the DIE have those pilots available? I'm still shaking my head at the thought of making those poor sods fly against Zeros in those things, but as you point out they'd be (urp!) better than nothing. As long as you're looking for little more than a non-suicidal delaying action.

Yes, they did and they flew against them and were promptly shot down. They didn't have those fighters just to have them sit on the tarmac!
 
The Buffalo was tested in Britain and was found to have performance superior to the Hurricane in many aspects. The Hurricane in Burma and Ceylon fared poorly against the Zero. The Spitfire in Australia fared poorly against the Zero in Australia. The Dutch CW-21B fared poorly in the DEI. The Wildcat fared poorly in performance evaluation against the Aleutian A6M2. The P-40 had notable success against the Zero in China using tactics devised by Chennault, and would be a better substitute, if the tactics were adopted as well. The Buffalo would have done better if properly built, with correct engine parts, and without long range tanks.

Experiments were done on the Curtiss P-36 to streamline the engine better using a ducted cowl. It failed and they ended up fiddling with a normal cowl, formed better, with a propellor spinner designed for speed. This resulted in success, achieving 340 mph from a 311 mph airplane. This was called the XP-42. Success didn't come until 1943, after the mass production of the P&W R-2800, so success was pointless for the P-42. The lesson learned was never adopted by America's military, but was utilized by successful post-war air racers and record breakers in Corsairs and F8F Conquest II and 505 mph Rare Bear. I question how fast an F4F Wildcat would have been with a streamlined cowl/spinner combination.
 
TBH, I don't see it changes anything much. The performance advantage of the F4F over the F2A isn't large. You'd need to give the Navy F4Us or F6Fs to see much change.
 
Hate to rain on this parade, but something to keep in mind when it comes to giving the RAF, NEIAF, and RAAF the ex-USN/MC Buffaloes: pilot training and squadron workups. In those days, it took about two weeks to a month to get a pilot, depending on his own individual experience level, checked out on a new aircraft that he had never flown before. Then the squadron has to complete workups to be declared combat-ready, and that's another two months at best if they're transitioning from older aircraft, at least four if they're standing up from scratch (i.e. a whole new squadron formed to fly the aircraft).

Say the F2As are replaced by Wildcats Fleet- and Corps-wide in Oct-Nov 41. Then the planes have to be shipped to their new operators-and that takes at least three weeks in freighters. Earliest they can arrive is early November 41. The war starts on that side of the Date Line on 8 Dec. The units flying the initial delivery of F2As, at best, will have begun their squadron workups at least. But they won't be anywhere near combat-ready, until they have to face Zeroes and Oscars. The experience of the Buffalo squadrons in Malaysia in the early days isn't good: they were shot to pieces or blasted on the ground. The lone Buffalo Squadron in Burma did OK: but flying alongside them was one of Claire Chennault's squadrons (3rd) with P-40Bs. They took on the fighters while the Buffaloes tried going for bombers-and not always succeeding. And the P-40s sometimes were busy enough that enough Japanese fighters stayed with their bombers-and shot the Buffaloes to pieces.

A good analogy would be the AAF pilots in the Philippines: one squadron had been on P-40Bs since arrival in the Philippines, two transitioned from P-35s to P-40Es between their arrival and 8 Dec, and one squadron had just arrived that final weekend and some of their aircraft were still in the shipping crates on that fatal day of 8 Dec 41.
 
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