What if while the Germanic faith was at it’s greatest extent it reformed into an organized religion

The Germanic and Norse Pagans relied on oral tradition to pass their faith from one generation to the next. There was also next to no religious hierarchy, which, frankly, a religion needs to be 'organised' in the same manner the Abrahamic faiths and Buddhism are organised. There was no equal to the Pope, Caliph, or Dalai Lama in any of the European pagan traditions (the Celtic druids probably came the closest to this sort of system, but they were more like sorcerors/seers, or witchdoctors, AFAIK).

The Abrahamic and some eastern religions had the benefit of being written down. It was only after the Norse world was Christianised that we got the Poettic and Prose Edda, which describe the myths associated with Norse Paganism (I don't know just how severely Germanic Paganism differed, but there was nothing similar). I suppose you'd need a historical figure who was literate but still pagan to try and make some kind of written record of the Germanic faith that could be distributed and referenced. Of course, you would also need a priestly class, which simply wasn't there (again, to my knowledge).

I don't subscribe to the usual Christian Determinism stance of the board, so I don't believe what you want is impossible, but I do accept that it is extremely difficult.
 
Maybe there could be a Frankish king who decides to create a church based on the religion with like a pope figure. I’m not really sure tbh
 
You'd need a more organised Germanic people to begin with, and the organisation they had was based on the (Christian) Roman Empire. They would need to absorb a lot of Greek philosophy like Neoplatonism and for that matter Christianity to create an organised faith.
 
So I have talked about this before, but cant seem to find a source for it so do take this with a massive grain of salt.

I have heard in mentioned in blogs, documentaries, books and general discussion that during the Christian conversion efforts of north Europe, the preists employed an interesting narritive tactic. Namely, the story goes that they would embrace the local mythology, but assure the people that they were mistaken on the finer details. I.e. Ragnarok had already happened and the bible was the telling of Baldr's cycle.

Now again, whilst I can find lots of references to this, i cant find any direct source showing it is the case, but if true I could see a fully theological split taking place around this idea.
Whether it is true or not, there is also some precedent for the behaviour of the preistd, particularly in the case of Irish paganism in which the book of Invasions (a collection of myths about the Tuathe De) is recontextualised in a biblical sense: many of the tribes are directly biblical (i.e. other flood survivors), the Tuatha De are humans who are taught sorcery by the goddessDanu (which actually suggests duotheism and something not far removed from Wicca but I digress) and eventually even concert to Christianity.
 

Zen9

Banned
I always get the impression germanic religion is almost a direct rejection of 'Celtic' religion.
 
I always get the impression germanic religion is almost a direct rejection of 'Celtic' religion.

In what way? Both are pretty comparable being derived from the same Indo-European roots, although the Celtic peoples had druids and have more recorded sources than Germanic religion (outside of North Germanic religion). Celtic and Germanic peoples blended together frequently in Antiquity as well, and we know for a fact that Germanic languages displaced Celtic languages over much of modern Germany and Austria in the 1st-5th centuries AD.
 
Yeah, Julius Caesar’s self serving narrative that the Germans were on one side of the Rhine and the Celts the other and that they were fighting as enemies is largely a misconception. The Celts and Germans mixed and intermingled around the Rhine and beyond it (lower Germany was traditionally Celtic anyways.) Ariovistus, the German king who Caesar fought when he tried to cross the Rhine, is speculated to be of mixed Germanic-Celtic origin as his name suggests.

Germanic religion being a “rejection of Celtic religion” sort of implies some national ethno-religious policy that people in Antiquity would hardly have been aware of.
 
There was no equal to the Pope, Caliph, or Dalai Lama in any of the European pagan traditions (the Celtic druids probably came the closest to this sort of system, but they were more like sorcerors/seers, or witchdoctors, AFAIK).
Not necessarily. Though the accuracy of these claims is nowadays highly disputed, the chronicle of Peter of Dusburg describes Baltic religion as organized with a center in the temple of Romowe and a single religious head, the Kriwe (or Kriwe of Kriwes, sources vary).

Though it is much more likely that Dusburg invented much of what he wrote to make Baltic paganism seem more threatening than it actually is, there's most likely at least some historical basis behind his text. The concept of a "Kriwe", an elder religious leader or a priest, is a recurring concept in descriptions of Baltic paganism from the period, even in legends which come from the Lithuanians themselves - for example, the Iron Wolf myth, which shows a Lithuanian pagan religious head, the kriwe Lizdeika.
 
Not necessarily. Though the accuracy of these claims is nowadays highly disputed, the chronicle of Peter of Dusburg describes Baltic religion as organized with a center in the temple of Romowe and a single religious head, the Kriwe (or Kriwe of Kriwes, sources vary).

Though it is much more likely that Dusburg invented much of what he wrote to make Baltic paganism seem more threatening than it actually is, there's most likely at least some historical basis behind his text. The concept of a "Kriwe", an elder religious leader or a priest, is a recurring concept in descriptions of Baltic paganism from the period, even in legends which come from the Lithuanians themselves - for example, the Iron Wolf myth, which shows a Lithuanian pagan religious head, the kriwe Lizdeika.

I’d imagine this is the same as Adam of Bremen describing in his Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum of the “very famous temple of the Ubsola” [Uppsala] and how it was a central church for the Pagans. It’s likely a bit fantastical even though there is evidence for its existence, and I doubt the Scandinavians had any concept of a “central church” in the way the Christians or we today think of it.
 
Maybe there could be a Frankish king who decides to create a church based on the religion with like a pope figure. I’m not really sure tbh
What would one's motivation be for creating a church? More importantly, what would anyone's motivation be for joining this church? Invented religions never last long - you need to have "true believers" who are willing to devote their entire lives to the religion, propagate it, and die for it if necessary. Germanic paganism, like every other form of paganism, was a shared set of rituals of superstitions, unlike Christianity which calls for its followers to change their entire worldview and live their lives for a higher purpose.

Perhaps there could be a "Cult of Thor" where followers attempt to make Thor into a sort of messianic figure. But again, I feel like it would attract few followers.
 
The Germanic and Norse Pagans relied on oral tradition to pass their faith from one generation to the next. There was also next to no religious hierarchy, which, frankly, a religion needs to be 'organised' in the same manner the Abrahamic faiths and Buddhism are organised. There was no equal to the Pope, Caliph, or Dalai Lama in any of the European pagan traditions (the Celtic druids probably came the closest to this sort of system, but they were more like sorcerors/seers, or witchdoctors, AFAIK).

The Abrahamic and some eastern religions had the benefit of being written down. It was only after the Norse world was Christianised that we got the Poettic and Prose Edda, which describe the myths associated with Norse Paganism (I don't know just how severely Germanic Paganism differed, but there was nothing similar). I suppose you'd need a historical figure who was literate but still pagan to try and make some kind of written record of the Germanic faith that could be distributed and referenced. Of course, you would also need a priestly class, which simply wasn't there (again, to my knowledge).

I don't subscribe to the usual Christian Determinism stance of the board, so I don't believe what you want is impossible, but I do accept that it is extremely difficult.
The religious and political leaders were often the same people in Germanic societies.
 
What would one's motivation be for creating a church? More importantly, what would anyone's motivation be for joining this church? Invented religions never last long - you need to have "true believers" who are willing to devote their entire lives to the religion, propagate it, and die for it if necessary. Germanic paganism, like every other form of paganism, was a shared set of rituals of superstitions, unlike Christianity which calls for its followers to change their entire worldview and live their lives for a higher purpose.

Perhaps there could be a "Cult of Thor" where followers attempt to make Thor into a sort of messianic figure. But again, I feel like it would attract few followers.

Germanic religion was fatalistic--everything would die in Ragnarök (which seems to not just be a Norse legend, but also occurs in continental Germanic mythology), aside from two humans and some gods. If you worship Tiwaz, Wodanaz, or Thunraz, too bad, they will die in the final battle against evil, while only a few gods will live. Compare to Hinduism, where eventually the gods will die, but they'll recreate the world and the gods, and this will happen for all eternity.

So imagine a prophet who espouses a way to be one of those "saved" after Ragnarök. They will be saved while the gods will die. At their death, those who accept this faith and its rituals will be preserved in some afterlife, and they will emerge after Ragnarök with Baldr, who will rule the world forever after. I see a relation between Baldr and Jesus, but I think this is natural, and in any case likely, since Christian syncreticism will occur throughout Northern Europe even without much direct church influence.

I think you need both a "Germanic Hinduism" and a "Germanic Buddhism" to emerge to really preserve Northern European traditional religion (incorporating Slavic, Baltic, and Finnic traditions would be like Hinduism and Buddhism incorporating the many non-Indo-European traditions in India, like those of the Tamils).
 
What would one's motivation be for creating a church? More importantly, what would anyone's motivation be for joining this church? Invented religions never last long - you need to have "true believers" who are willing to devote their entire lives to the religion, propagate it, and die for it if necessary. Germanic paganism, like every other form of paganism, was a shared set of rituals of superstitions, unlike Christianity which calls for its followers to change their entire worldview and live their lives for a higher purpose.

Perhaps there could be a "Cult of Thor" where followers attempt to make Thor into a sort of messianic figure. But again, I feel like it would attract few followers.
I think you are somewhat underestimating invented religions. There have been a few with a large for over a century for instance.
 
I think you are somewhat underestimating invented religions. There have been a few with a large for over a century for instance.

Such as? Religions don't appear out of nothing. Islam came from Judaism and Christianity along with local Arab traditions. Mormonism largely came from the Second Great Awakening. Even Scientology came from increasing belief in aliens, UFOs, and New Age sort of stuff in the 50s onwards.
 
Such as? Religions don't appear out of nothing. Islam came from Judaism and Christianity along with local Arab traditions. Mormonism largely came from the Second Great Awakening. Even Scientology came from increasing belief in aliens, UFOs, and New Age sort of stuff in the 50s onwards.
Sure religions dont come from nothing, but that doesnt mean they are not invented religions, as a disqualifier from the idea of incented religions I think that is flawrd because it could literally nullify every clearly invented religion (i.e. pastafarianism).
And not sure if I should say which religion I was talking about, only on the grounds that I have mentioned it in the past and got some moderater shock, which is fair enough as its sort of hard to say "your religion is objectively fake" without coming across as an ass.
 
Sure religions dont come from nothing, but that doesnt mean they are not invented religions, as a disqualifier from the idea of incented religions I think that is flawrd because it could literally nullify every clearly invented religion (i.e. pastafarianism).
And not sure if I should say which religion I was talking about, only on the grounds that I have mentioned it in the past and got some moderater shock, which is fair enough as its sort of hard to say "your religion is objectively fake" without coming across as an ass.

Well yes, every religion is "invented", but religions generally need some sort of tradition to base themselves on, which depends on the cultural context of their time. For instance, the Heaven's Gate cult almost certainly could not have arisen based on some other comet.
 
I don't know why we're debating whether an 'invented' religion could take off, when this new Germanic religion would be based on the numerous traditions and practices of the Germanic people, certainly a huge pool from which they could draw both inspiration and willing acolytes.

I think the real problem is finding a way for the Germanic religion to become more organised before the stage is reached when it is too late to stop the rise of Christianity. Things like having the nature of Ragnarok changed to allow for followers to be saved through faith a la Christianity would come in too late. We can see this in OTL, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the idea of two people surviving Ragnarok came a post-Christian addition to the mythology, one that came as Christian ideas of redemption came in and old Germanic fatalism went out. I think it's too late to save Germanic paganism by the time Christianity is entrenched across Europe. I think you need something to build up a political and social system complex enough to compete with Christianity. I liked metalinvader665's idea of more Roman and Greek influence in Germania. Perhaps the region is absorbed into the Roman Empire for 100 years or so before splitting off, helping them to develop more and giving them ideas about how to go about further organising their religion. It would need to be a short enough span that their Gods aren't completely replaced by Roman analogues though. From there, with a base strong enough to oppose Christianity, the Germanic religion could evolve in all sorts of directions.
 
Well yes, every religion is "invented", but religions generally need some sort of tradition to base themselves on, which depends on the cultural context of their time. For instance, the Heaven's Gate cult almost certainly could not have arisen based on some other comet.
Im not saying all religions are invented but that some are. As its the least contreversial, somethiny like scientology clearly is, whilst Christianity etc is impossible to know and/or distinguish from relevation. What I dont understand is why you are bringing up the idea that there needs to be a tradition; unless im missing something it seems your saying something not in disagreement with what I have said?
 
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