What if we had a technocratic communist China?

Usually the scenarios with a better and more functional China goes around the idea of the kmt winning, or even some forward thinking clique taking power before the kmt takes over. Instead of that I wondered other thing: Communism, that is, Marxism leninsm and it's variations, is usually a technocrat minded ideology, but some times someone insane like Mao or Pol Pot takes over and screw things up even worse than they would be under a normal government like that. Mao did a lot of terrible policies due lack of skill and forward thinking, like the war on birds, and thus China took decades more to turn into the powerhouse is today.

Let's say that something different happened, however, instead of Mao, and instead of a internal reformist (like Deng), a nationalist or a hardliner in power of the PRC, we had a technocrat, maybe Mao dies during the second stage of the civil war, or shortly after the PRC is declared, thus the communist party still takes over, but under this technocrat leader, what could happen? Who would be the best figure to rise in this scenario?
 
Usually the scenarios with a better and more functional China goes around the idea of the kmt winning, or even some forward thinking clique taking power before the kmt takes over. Instead of that I wondered other thing: Communism, that is, Marxism leninsm and it's variations, is usually a technocrat minded ideology, but some times someone insane like Mao or Pol Pot takes over and screw things up even worse than they would be under a normal government like that. Mao did a lot of terrible policies due lack of skill and forward thinking, like the war on birds, and thus China took decades more to turn into the powerhouse is today.

Let's say that something different happened, however, instead of Mao, and instead of a internal reformist (like Deng), a nationalist or a hardliner in power of the PRC, we had a technocrat, maybe Mao dies during the second stage of the civil war, or shortly after the PRC is declared, thus the communist party still takes over, but under this technocrat leader, what could happen? Who would be the best figure to rise in this scenario?
Zhou Enlai.
Best paramount leader the PRC never had.
 

Orangecar

Banned
China pretty much is this now. Very few people who actaully join the comminist party are die hards like Mao and Deng who expirienced real revolution. All politicians there now are nothing more than technocrats who pay lip service to Marx the same way your family goes to Church once a year on Christmas.
But anyway perhaps I am biased because I have spent some time in China but to me the state and government already seem to be efficient and technocratic.
Maybe you want it to be that but earlier? Maybe the KMT moves to the left and continues to gain aid from the USSR and models itself after the Societ Union while being more open to "third way" economic policies
 
Zhou Enlai.
Best paramount leader the PRC never had.

Maybe succeded by Li Qiang. Zhou Enlai was the one who recurited him in the first place. Qiang, according to his wikipedia page, seemsto be taylor made to become the leader of a technology focused communist China if he just gotten further into the inner circle.

Li became a Communist during the May Thirtieth Movement,which began when the British police of the Shanghai International Settlement opened fire on Chinese protesters, killing 11. He joined the Communist Party of China (CPC) in August 1925 and made dynamite and grenades in July 1926 to prepare for the Third Rebellion of Shanghai Workers [zh] in support of Chiang Kai-shek's Northern Expedition from Guangzhou.[1] He is thus considered a founder of Communist China's arms industry.In March 1927, when the Northern Expedition army took over Changshu, Li was appointed as a member of the temporary executive committee of his hometown.

Special Service Section (Teke)
On 12 April 1927, Chiang Kai-shek's KMT launched a coup against his Communist allies and massacred them in Shanghai. The surviving Communists went underground and established its intelligence agency, the Special Service Section (known by its Chinese abbreviation Teke), led by Zhou Enlai. Because of Li's experience in bomb-making and his familiarity with Shanghai's Green Gang, Zhou and Gu Shunzhang recruited him into Teke and made him head of communications, one of Teke's four divisions. Li developed a close friendship with Gu, head of the Red Squad or Teke's assassination team, and Chen Geng, head of intelligence. They worked together in the failed mission to rescue the captured Communist leader Peng Pai, but successfully assassinated Bai Xin, the turncoat who had betrayed Peng.

In 1928, Zhou resolved to establish an underground radio station in Shanghai to communicate with CPC bases in the rest of the country. Li was assigned the task because of his technical background and proficiency in English, as few Chinese books on radio technology were available at the time and radio equipment was strictly controlled by the KMT. Despite having no prior knowledge about radios, he taught himself by reading English books and studying telegraph transmitters. He successfully made a radio transmitter in 1929 and established the CPC's first underground radio station later that year. He then went to Hong Kong to establish a radio station in the British colony. When Deng Xiaoping transited in Hong Kong on his way to lead the Baise Uprising in Guangxi, Li co-ordinated with him to facilitate communication between Guangxi and the CPC leadership in Shanghai.

Exile in the Soviet Union
In April 1931, Gu Shunzhang, the head of the Red Squad, defected after he was captured by the KMT in Wuhan. Thanks to the quick reactions of Qian Zhuangfei and Li Kenong, Teke's moles in the KMT intelligence organization, the CPC leadership in Shanghai was able to evacuate before the arrival of KMT agents. As Gu was intimately familiar with Li Qiang's life, Zhou Enlai arranged to have Li leave for the Soviet Union.
In Moscow, Li planned to study at the Communist University of the Toilers of the East, which was attended by many CPC leaders, including Liu Shaoqi, Luo Yinong, and Ren Bishi. However, Wang Ming, the CPC leader in Moscow, deeply distrusted Li because of his close relationship with Gu Shunzhang.[1] He kept Li out of the university and prevented him from returning to China. Li instead joined the Communication Science Research Institute and devoted his next six years studying radio theory and technology. He published a book on rhombic antenna in English, and was recognized as one of the top radio experts in the Soviet Union. The book was later translated into Chinese and used as a textbook in Chinese universities.

Second Sino-Japanese War and Chinese Civil War
After the beginning of the Second Sino-Japanese War, Li was granted permission to return to China at the end of 1937, as his technical expertise was urgently needed by the Communist headquarters in Yan'an. He was appointed head of the Bureau of Military Industry, tasked with establishing an arms industry in rural Yan'an. In 1939, the Bureau of Military Industry created the CPC's first self-made rifle, a Type 79 rifle. By 1943, the bureau had manufactured nearly 10,000 rifles, 1,500 grenade launchers and many other weapons. During the Yan'an Rectification Movement, Li protected top technical experts such as Shen Hong [zh] and Qian Zhiguang [zh] from persecution. In May 1944, he was appointed President of Yan'an Natural Science Institute, the CPC's first technical university, and reformed its curriculum to serve industrial and agricultural production.
During the Chinese Civil War, Li oversaw arms production in Communist-controlled areas. He also established a shortwave radio station for the Xinhua News Agency to broadcast messages from the CPC leadership.

From 1949 to the Cultural Revolution
After the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949, Li was appointed Director of the General Administration of Radio and the General Administration of Telecommunications. Because of his technical expertise and proficiency in Russian, in August 1952 Mao Zedong appointed Li as Deputy Minister of Foreign Trade and Commercial Counselor at the Chinese embassy in Moscow. He was elected as a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences in 1955. From April 1956 to October 1958, he served concurrently as a member of the Aviation Industry Committee of the Ministry of National Defense. In March 1961, he was appointed vice-chairman of the Commission of Foreign Economic Relations (later Ministry of Foreign Economic Relations). He also held positions in the China Electronics Society and the Electronics Research Institut
 
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China pretty much is this now. Very few people who actaully join the comminist party are die hards like Mao and Deng who expirienced real revolution. All politicians there now are nothing more than technocrats who pay lip service to Marx the same way your family goes to Church once a year on Christmas.
But anyway perhaps I am biased because I have spent some time in China but to me the state and government already seem to be efficient and technocratic.
Maybe you want it to be that but earlier? Maybe the KMT moves to the left and continues to gain aid from the USSR and models itself after the Societ Union while being more open to "third way" economic policies
The princelings seem to be turning China back into a Red Aristocracy, while the tuanpai pull it in a kinda technocratic, kinda populist direction.

Zhou Enlai.
Best paramount leader the PRC never had.
There are still disputes about whether Zhou Enlai really was the saint the CCP says he was.
 
The princelings seem to be turning China back into a Red Aristocracy, while the tuanpai pull it in a kinda technocratic, kinda populist direction.


There are still disputes about whether Zhou Enlai really was the saint the CCP says he was.
At least Zhou wasn't like Mao.
 
There are still disputes about whether Zhou Enlai really was the saint the CCP says he was.

Yes and Nagy Imre was an informant if not an operative of the NKVD.

So we got Zhou in 1949, what happens?

Zhou gets topped by the party.

Running a New Course will get him topped. Also there's going to be a proportion of deaths in that left stalinists were revolutionaries and tail-ended the working class effectively. And bourgeois liberals will always decry those. Never mind the loyalists or parliamentarians or Roux.

At best we get Fitzpatrick's nomenklatura purged by the working class and peasantry by 58, and then a surprocess of workers control in the 1960s. And it boosts Mikoyan. Maybe 56 goes different. Zhou might get that.

If anyone can scan the little yellow book that'd be good.
 

CalBear

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Everyone needs to be careful that this doesn't slip into "current politics". There is already at least one post that is pushing that envelope.
 
? I don't understand the reference.
Nagy Imre, or Imre Nagy in English language name order was a famous "reformist" stalinist, the prime minister of choice of the party and the people in the 1956 Hungarian Revolution, a man for whom Agronomy meant favouring maximum yield not party power, whose 1953 prime ministership of Hungary led to economic benefits and freedom.

in 1936 he sent comrades to gulag.

Such a man is Zhou.
 
Nagy Imre, or Imre Nagy in English language name order was a famous "reformist" stalinist, the prime minister of choice of the party and the people in the 1956 Hungarian Revolution, a man for whom Agronomy meant favouring maximum yield not party power, whose 1953 prime ministership of Hungary led to economic benefits and freedom.

in 1936 he sent comrades to gulag.

Such a man is Zhou.
Ah. I fully agree then, especially with Zhou's treatment of Liu Shaoqi. You could say that he tried his best to protect Peng Dehuai though.
 
Did Liu Shaoqi really deserve protection though? Remember that most of this level of political action is disputes amongst the nomenklatura. "Koba why must I die?" well, mate, because you shopped the workers to the bosses.

But the fundamental here is that Zhao is not a paramount leader. It is not in his character. Nagy was, frankly, a buffoon. What you need is Zhao to be a buffoon to a second tier manipulator who doesn't want centre stage but wants to achieve policy ends. But those have to be compatable with Zhao's predilicition for geniune communism (as in workers control). Hard call.
 
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