What if Vichy France declares war on UK?

Macragge1

Banned
French Fleet w/Axis: Why didn't the Germans SIEZE the French Fleet under terms of the Armistice? French naval assets could have been utilized by Germany and manned by German sailors. Had this occurred, coupled with the Italian Navy, the Axis could have easily forced the British from the Med & North Africa. Additionally, Germany could have greatly increased it's number of submarines by taking over the French boats. Also, the French had a number of modern battleships which could have been used as commerce raiders by German crews. French naval assets in German hands may have even led to evening out the odds of Germany attempting an Operation Sealion at some point.

The problem with this is that:

A) Germany don't have enough crews to man these vessels, nor are they in the process of training them. Doing so would be a huge investment over the course of several years - time is something that Germany doesn't have.

B) It is difficult, near impossible, for Germany to seize any appreciable part of the French Fleet. We need only look at the scuttling of the French Fleet in Toulon in 1942 to understand this; it's very difficult to get onto a ship if the crew don't want you on there; they can simply sail away (as some did, to join De Gaulle) or they can sink themselves, as the remainder of the French Navy did at Toulon. There may have been emnity between the French Navy and the British following Mers-El-Kebir, but they would still not entertain for a second the possibility of handing their ships over to la Boche.
 
The problem with this is that:

A) Germany don't have enough crews to man these vessels, nor are they in the process of training them. Doing so would be a huge investment over the course of several years - time is something that Germany doesn't have.

B) It is difficult, near impossible, for Germany to seize any appreciable part of the French Fleet. We need only look at the scuttling of the French Fleet in Toulon in 1942 to understand this; it's very difficult to get onto a ship if the crew don't want you on there; they can simply sail away (as some did, to join De Gaulle) or they can sink themselves, as the remainder of the French Navy did at Toulon. There may have been emnity between the French Navy and the British following Mers-El-Kebir, but they would still not entertain for a second the possibility of handing their ships over to la Boche.

Excellent points, and I concur. I'd love to hear your remarks on the other scenarios I listed.
 

Cook

Banned
French Fleet w/Axis: Why didn't the Germans SIEZE the French Fleet under terms of the Armistice? French naval assets could have been utilized by Germany and manned by German sailors. Had this occurred, coupled with the Italian Navy, the Axis could have easily forced the British from the Med & North Africa. Additionally, Germany could have greatly increased it's number of submarines by taking over the French boats. Also, the French had a number of modern battleships which could have been used as commerce raiders by German crews. French naval assets in German hands may have even led to evening out the odds of Germany attempting an Operation Sealion at some point.

The representatives sent by Petain in June 1940 to negotiate an Armistice were instructed to break off negotiations if the Germans made any demands on either the French Fleet or Empire. Both were excluded from the reparations. In any case the French Fleet had sailed for ports in North Africa and England prior to the Germans rolling in, hence the British attack on them at Mers el-kebir.

Article VIII of the Armistice, 22 June 1940:

'The French combat fleet –except such parts as will be permitted for the preservation of French interests in their colonial empire by the French government- is to be consolidated into certain harbours and demobilized and deactivated under German, that is, Italian control. The basis for determining the harbour shall be the peace-time base of the ship.

The German government solemnly declares that it does not intend to deploy the French warship fleet that is now in ports under German control for war purposes, except vessels that are needed for the coast guard and for minesweeping. Furthermore, the German government declares solemnly and explicitly that it does not intend to raise any demands for the French warship fleet at the conclusion of a peace treaty. Except for such a determined segment of the French fleet that is representing French interests in the colonial empire, all warships that are presently operating outside of France, are to be recalled to France immediately.


For Hitler this was perfectly acceptable since he wanted the French state to continue exercising control over its empire to prevent the British from picking it up. Following meetings with Petain and Darlan he was confident that with time they’d hand over the fleet unprompted. Darlan had the French Fleet doing a great deal for the Germans anyway so French ships with experienced French crews were of more value than the same ships with inexperienced German crews. Note that this does not mean that Hitler would have kept his word in the long term, just that it suited his purposes in the short term.

The Germans were let down here by Ribbentrop and Gobbles. Any professional would have made far more of the advances by the Vichy representatives and seized with both hands every offer coming from them; Ribbentrop preferred to spurn them. Gobbles could have made far more mileage out of French feelings of English betrayal.
 
Last edited:
- French Fleet w/Allies: I wonder what impact on the war would have been had the French Fleet sailed into British ports prior to the Armistice and French naval leaders had vowed to fight on against Germany rather than being ordered to stand down by Vichy. A united British/French naval force would have been capable of immediately blowing the Italians out of the water, as well as muliplied the effectiveness of Atlantic convoy defenses and greatly enhanced Allied ability to counter the Uboat menace.

French Fleet w/Axis: Why didn't the Germans SIEZE the French Fleet under terms of the Armistice? French naval assets could have been utilized by Germany and manned by German sailors. Had this occurred, coupled with the Italian Navy, the Axis could have easily forced the British from the Med & North Africa. Additionally, Germany could have greatly increased it's number of submarines by taking over the French boats. Also, the French had a number of modern battleships which could have been used as commerce raiders by German crews. French naval assets in German hands may have even led to evening out the odds of Germany attempting an Operation Sealion at some point.

The historical OTL outcome is the only one that makes sense. If the bulk of the French fleet went on and joined the Allies, the Germans would just occupy the rest of France then, which in 1940 probably seemed like the Germans would then be there forever. The Germans would be free to offer Italy (and even Spain) huge chunks of the colonial empire which the French couldn't be sure they could hold forever with the mother country completely occupied.

Joining the Axis (or even just allowing the Germans use of its fleet against Britain) would mean even a neutral USA invades the Carribian islands, French Guiana, probably the Pacific islands too. Indochina and Madagasagar and Syria would eventually be lost to Britain, and in exchange for being allies of Germany, they get the privledge of having a few hundred thousand people die on the eastern front for Hilter's Germany.
 
What stockpiles of fuel and ammunition were there at the various French overseas territories and how were they supplied?
 
What stockpiles of fuel and ammunition were there at the various French overseas territories and how were they supplied?

from reading the book mentioned earlier in the thread, aircraft were sent to Syria via Greece and there were blockade running ships.

What amazes me is that alot of vichy french soldiers fought in the various campaigns against the British for "Honour", yet when the Japanese moved into Indochina or the Germans moved into Vichy france in November 1942 they did not fight at all.
 
Top