What if USSR and Israel alliances did not died.
- Thread starter Jason222
- Start date
HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
We can't really know this... I mean the kinds of circumstances that would flip positions (since yeah, the US would seek out the Arab states to counterbalance a pro-Soviet Israel) enough to cause this sort of thing would vastly, vastly change what we know as the Cold War.
Plus there's no guarantee that an Israel with Soviet weapons won't get curb-stomped by more well-equipped Arab armies.
No guarantee but I doubt it. I was always under the impression that it wasn't Soviet weaponry that was the problem for the conventional Arab armies so much as it was better Israeli tactics, motivation and training (in addition to the preemptive tactics they employed in 1967). Other armies which used Soviet weaponry in the 1960s and 70s (India, Vietnam, Cuba in Angola etc.) did quite well against Western equipped forces (or Chinese forces during the short Sino-Vietnamese conflict).
you end up with flip governments, Israel's Government stays much the same, very left wing government for years and years, however Arab Governments likely are close to the US, likely staying right-wing Monarchies
Soviet weaponary is poorly suited for a small, well educated, compatatively wealthy country like Israel. In general western weapons had significant advantages over Soviet equivilents, for example Soviet warplanes in Arab hands generally only had 50% servicability (India with a strong home industry reached 80%) whereas western planes in Israeli hands regularly had 90% servicability. Western high tech gear is better too, a Sidewinder is better than the AA2 and western radars are considerably better.
see I fail to see why an Israel closer to the USSR would use Soviet arms, in OTL Israel bought arms from France through the 1950s and 1960s and in the 1970s made their own, before becoming American armies Junkies in the 1980s, if the USSR is playing the US role for Israel ITTL I see no reason Israel should not just buy from France or make their own arms (at a latter date)
Jason222
Banned
As far small arms go I not sure how much real different it made. When came tanks Israel upgrades had great deal do Israel victory against Egypt during six day. As for military combat aircraft Russia faster by average, does same range Western once can carry less load. Russia aircrafts cost about half as much western once do and last half as long. Russia jet fighter can carry less fire power on to battlefield. Israel with France help design type jet fighter they wanted. So possible Israel also help design Russia migs some fact to change will. Another more complex factor is if Israel armed nuclear weapon after all Israel scientists to build bomb ever since basic born. It very likely Russia and Israel work side by when came to nuclear weapons. Meaning Israel could as early as 1950’s leading Arab states not dare attacking Israel out fear own cities
First wouldn't we require a POD where Israel and the USSR were actually allies in the first place?
Cook
Banned
Sometime in the 1930s would be required I expect. Making them anti-British is of course easy enough. America is more problematic.
You don’t necessarily have to have them fully inside the Soviet tent, perhaps more of a Kosher Yugoslavia instead.
Unless the US is dramatically more interested in finding, and equipping, allies in the region then the option of an alliance with the US won't exist for Israel in the 1940s and 1950s.
That's because Soviet export equipment is neutered, and the people they export to tend to have bad training, logistics, and doctrine.
Cook
Banned
Whether we are prepared to accept the claim that Soviet aircraft have a significantly higher capability than their export versions is not relevant to this discussion since the hypothetical Socialist Israel would be a client state and therefore restricted to the inferior export models of aircraft.
They tend to be made with worse metalurgy, poorer workmanship, shoddier detail design which adds up to make them less than their broad specs say they should be. As a result they often aren't flown hard enough during peacetime to ensure pilots can squeeze the most out of them in war. Nor can they be flown as often as western aircraft, which means you need twice as many to fly the same amount of missions as a western aircraft.