What if the aircraft carrier wasn't sunk by the Japanese submarine ? And what will the consequences be for WW2?
What if USS Yorktown wasn't sunk by i 168
- Thread starter ghappy1000
- Start date
She's towed to Pearl Harbor, given temporary repairs, then sent to the West Coast (Bremerton or Hunter's Point) for a permanent repair job, which would take at least three months, as many as four. Yorktown would take on a new Air Group, and probably deploy to the Solomons sometime in November, '42. Barring run-ins with Japanese subs-which were active in Solomons waters, she'd fight there until the Central Pacific Campaign gets well underway in late '43. She would have stayed with Task Force 38/58 right until the end of the war, unless battle damage forced her back to the States for repair. CV-5 would be a strong candidate for preservation as a war memorial, on par with Enterprise, though she would likely be scrapped to save Enterprise as a memorial, though the latter is just my personal opinion.
CV-10 keeps her original name of Bon Homme Richard, and CV-31 is probably named after a Civil War or Revolutionary War battle. Gettysburg, perhaps....
CV-10 keeps her original name of Bon Homme Richard, and CV-31 is probably named after a Civil War or Revolutionary War battle. Gettysburg, perhaps....
Two torpedo hits means a lengthy stay in Hunter's Point or Bremerton. The Type-91 aerial torpedo (she took two, btw) had a 629-pound warhead. Big holes, if you get the idea.
Plus she still needed full repairs to the work that she suffered at Coral Sea, where she had also been written off as suck by the Japanese. It's why I wish she'd survived the I-168 attack: she could have gone on being sunk by the Japanese another four or five times!
Plus she still needed full repairs to the work that she suffered at Coral Sea, where she had also been written off as suck by the Japanese. It's why I wish she'd survived the I-168 attack: she could have gone on being sunk by the Japanese another four or five times!
No kidding - given the pounding that U.S. carriers took in the Solomons - Wasp and Hornet sunk, Enterprise and Saratoga heavily damaged - even odds that Yorktown doesn't make it through the campaign.
That said - her availability by mid-autumn would have been a critical boon to Halsey, especially if she were ready by the time of Santa Cruz.
Just a thought... without the loss of USS Yorktown, USS Wasp may stay in the Atlantic fleet longer.
Second thought: probably not, given that Yorktown would still be out of action for 4-8 months.
Yorktown's airgroup gets broken up for cadre and/or replacements, leading to the need for a new airgroup when she's available. Yorktown's crew would also get raided for cadre, so she'll need some work up time after repairs are completed.
Second thought: probably not, given that Yorktown would still be out of action for 4-8 months.
Yorktown's airgroup gets broken up for cadre and/or replacements, leading to the need for a new airgroup when she's available. Yorktown's crew would also get raided for cadre, so she'll need some work up time after repairs are completed.
It's at least a six month job once she gets back to the West Coast. The Coral Sea damage was estimated to be a ninety-day job to get her fully ready. So assume that the damage from Midway on top of that means six months in Hunter's Point (San Francisco) or Bremerton. A month in Pearl to get her in shape to sail to the West coast, then six months on the West Coast: she wouldn't be ready until December; then workups for the crew and air group, so she doesn't get to the Solomons until March or April. Wasp would have to make the Pacific switch with Yorktown in the yard in any event.
Certainly not given the avalanche of ship (and aircraft) production coming down the ways in '43...
The extra deck would have been a boon in the Solomons, but even so wouldn't have altered the final outcome (which was, after all, a U.S. victory anyway). It might have accelerated that victory slightly, and reduced U.S. losses slightly.
Given the urgency of Nimitz's need that fall, however, they might rush the repair job.
Just looking at other carriers which sustained serious damage...Enterprise took two direct 250kg bomb hits at Santa Cruz...jury-rig repairs kept her operating until the summer, when she then had relief to go to Puget for a three month overhaul and repair job in the yards.
Of course Yorktown had taken a worse beating - a total of four bombs and two torpedoes between the two battles. Not quite Franklin-levels of damage, but more than a jury-rig job or a week or two at Pearl could possibly hope to begin to fix. Nimitz would want the carrier back in action as soon as possible. Not being a an expert on carrier repair, however, I wouldn't want to hazard a guess at how fast Puget could turn her around.
I agree that Wasp will have to be in the Pacific. The need is most dire there.
I personally think if the Yorktown was saved, that ship would have ended up at Pearl Harbor and stayed there for a year or more in drydock repairs--the ship may not be in good enough shape for the trip from Pearl Harbor back to Bremerton, WA even after a "patch" repair.
TFSmith121
Banned
Go back one battle - Lexington (CV-2) survives Coral Sea
USS Lexington (CV-2) survives Coral Sea; as it was, of her four hits, only the second torpedo hit did enough damage to do her in, and even then it took a cascade of problems stemming from early-war DC.
If Fletcher does NOT detach Crace's cruiser-destroyer force (2 heavy cruisers, 1 light cruiser, and 2 destroyers) that is a significantly "heavier" amount of flak the IJNAF aircraft will have to get through...or even say USS Hammann takes the second torpedo that (historically) struck Lady Lex.
That gives the USN four fast carriers (two of them beat up, however) for Midway, and given some redistribution of aircraft and aircrew (not sending as many as Lexington's veterans from Coral Sea home before Midway, for example) and adding the USMC F4Fs and SBDs that (historically) went to Midway very late in May (IIRC) manages to fill all four flight decks. Maybe add the VT-8 detachment with TBFs that historically went to Midway, as well.
That reduces the fighters and strike aircraft at Midway, but one delta there would have been to send a 24-plane detachment of P-40s to the island, in place of the Marine F4Fs and SBDs, along with some USAAF aircrew. The Army pilots would be spoiling for a fight, and if George Welch and Ken Taylor are on Oahu, there are a couple of good candidates on hand to lead the Army detachment. Given their role would be air defense over the Midway NAS, the Army pilots would be better equipped than the Marine F4F and F2A pilots, historically.
With four flight decks, it is possible the US carriers could hit the IJN force with 10 attack squadrons (six VB/VS and four VT) and still keeping two VS/VB in reserve; even if Hornet's strike miscarries (as historically) chances are reasonable there are four US Navy dive bomber squadrons over the four IJN carriers on the morning of June 5, which could rapidly put all four out of action and leave the IJN aircrew coming back from the Midway raid without any refuge.
End result, Lexington and Yorktown both survive the first six months of 1942, and are available - after repairs and refits - for action in the fall/winter, which gives Nimitz six fast carriers to work with by the end of the year; it is also possible that Wasp returns to the Atlantic Fleet as a running mate for Ranger, which stil gives CINCPAC the five largest carriers in the fleet.
Those numbers could lead to some interesting possibilties in both theaters, of course.
Best,
USS Lexington (CV-2) survives Coral Sea; as it was, of her four hits, only the second torpedo hit did enough damage to do her in, and even then it took a cascade of problems stemming from early-war DC.
If Fletcher does NOT detach Crace's cruiser-destroyer force (2 heavy cruisers, 1 light cruiser, and 2 destroyers) that is a significantly "heavier" amount of flak the IJNAF aircraft will have to get through...or even say USS Hammann takes the second torpedo that (historically) struck Lady Lex.
That gives the USN four fast carriers (two of them beat up, however) for Midway, and given some redistribution of aircraft and aircrew (not sending as many as Lexington's veterans from Coral Sea home before Midway, for example) and adding the USMC F4Fs and SBDs that (historically) went to Midway very late in May (IIRC) manages to fill all four flight decks. Maybe add the VT-8 detachment with TBFs that historically went to Midway, as well.
That reduces the fighters and strike aircraft at Midway, but one delta there would have been to send a 24-plane detachment of P-40s to the island, in place of the Marine F4Fs and SBDs, along with some USAAF aircrew. The Army pilots would be spoiling for a fight, and if George Welch and Ken Taylor are on Oahu, there are a couple of good candidates on hand to lead the Army detachment. Given their role would be air defense over the Midway NAS, the Army pilots would be better equipped than the Marine F4F and F2A pilots, historically.
With four flight decks, it is possible the US carriers could hit the IJN force with 10 attack squadrons (six VB/VS and four VT) and still keeping two VS/VB in reserve; even if Hornet's strike miscarries (as historically) chances are reasonable there are four US Navy dive bomber squadrons over the four IJN carriers on the morning of June 5, which could rapidly put all four out of action and leave the IJN aircrew coming back from the Midway raid without any refuge.
End result, Lexington and Yorktown both survive the first six months of 1942, and are available - after repairs and refits - for action in the fall/winter, which gives Nimitz six fast carriers to work with by the end of the year; it is also possible that Wasp returns to the Atlantic Fleet as a running mate for Ranger, which stil gives CINCPAC the five largest carriers in the fleet.
Those numbers could lead to some interesting possibilties in both theaters, of course.
Best,
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TFSmith121
Banned
Including simply that the game was up and it was time
Including simply that the game was up and it was time to hunker down; basically their strategy from 4Q 1942 onwards, except four months early.
Which is interesting, beacause it gives them six fleet carriers of their own to try and manage a defensive strategy with when the Central Pacific counter-offensive begins in 1943...
Back to the defensive "decisive battle" concept...
Best,
Including simply that the game was up and it was time to hunker down; basically their strategy from 4Q 1942 onwards, except four months early.
Which is interesting, beacause it gives them six fleet carriers of their own to try and manage a defensive strategy with when the Central Pacific counter-offensive begins in 1943...
Back to the defensive "decisive battle" concept...
Best,
Saphroneth
Banned
Well, they assumed that the Yorktown had been sunk or at any rate disabled. They may also assume that the Lex is similarly held up in yard hands.
I actually think it might be more likely that the search planes spot the US fleet sooner (with an extra carrier, there's more to see, but they'll see one two-ship TF which is what they expect) and so it becomes a much more "even" fight. The superior US damage control will likely mean a victory, but one less decisive than OTL...
Though, if the total casualties are two US carriers (let's say the big E and Hornet, because why not) against the First Carrier Striking Force, that means that when the dust clears the situation is pretty close to OTL. Midway is less of "the incredible victory", of course.
Given the meat grinder that turned out to be for the navy, Yorktown would likely be at the bottom of Iron Bottom Sound instead of the Pacific Basin.
sharlin
Banned
They would not send a carrier into the close confines round those islands. Anyone who suggested such a thing would probably get keel hauled by King. If she got home Captain Bruckhimer would pull off the greatest feat of damage control since the Seydlitz in WW1, she'd need to be patched up and repaired before being sent to the US for full time repairs.
If she was with the Enterprise for Santa Cruz that could help that tactical defeat but strategic victory for the USN be more important, and if she survived that then she's made it to the end of the war.
If she was with the Enterprise for Santa Cruz that could help that tactical defeat but strategic victory for the USN be more important, and if she survived that then she's made it to the end of the war.