What if US won the War of 1812?

But the British were willing to negotiate to end the war. It was the war hawks in congress that started the war. The British were eager to resume trade for trade with the uS was not only very profitable for British industry but also provided alotbif taxes to the government.

All British actions were meant to bring US to negotiation table so not sure capturing British North America going to do that with Britain already prepared for that. No what an American capture of British north America will do is piss of the British and they would respond by more naval attacks along coast and raids plus a major military endeavor to recapture the occupied territory.

To the very end, the British were unwilling to yield on the impressment of American sailors into the Royal Navy, which the American negotiators kept pressing at Ghent. The British might not have wanted an open war with the US, but they wanted to continue their piracy of American shipping with impunity.

The American negotiators offered the British status quo ante bellum in August of 1814, which the British refused, insisting on the US giving up fishing rights off the Grand Banks, the right to station naval vessels on the Great Lakes, and ceding vast amounts of territory in Maine and the Old Northwest. It was only after Baltimore and Plattsburgh that the British yielded and accepted the American offer.
 
So America says "yo Britain stop impressing our dudes", Britain says "fuck you, we need dudes", America says, "don't care, those are OUR dudes, asswipe", war breaks out, but then Boney invades Britain and it turns into a clusterfuck.

America slowly grinds up into Canada (at the time, America was only somewhat more powerful than Canada, not overwhelmingly so, so the Ontario peninsula is going to take some major work.

Yeah, I don't see any scenario in which the US keeps Canada without Napoleon marching through London. By 1812, that's an impossibility.
 
To the very end, the British were unwilling to yield on the impressment of American sailors into the Royal Navy, which the American negotiators kept pressing at Ghent. The British might not have wanted an open war with the US, but they wanted to continue their piracy of American shipping with impunity.
As the Orders in Council allowing impressment had been cancelled prior to the US declaration of war, although the news had not crossed the Atlantic, I'm not sure what you are getting at here?
 

Lusitania

Donor
Ok folks we seem to have a difference of opinion. We have a it was one way and it was another way. It seems that pride on both sides might of made both sides state they were in the right.
 
annexing Canada would actually lead to a huge regional crisis for the US. The south was deadest against taking Canada, since it would add a bunch of free states to the Union. The NE was against invading Canada and pissing off the UK, since it would deeply hurt their shipping businesses. Only the western states were in favor of it, since they were the ones suffering from NA raiding...

How much of that was an issue though in 1812? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall that there was much anti-slavery movement that early or that the slave states were too worried about the institution.
 
How much of that was an issue though in 1812? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall that there was much anti-slavery movement that early or that the slave states were too worried about the institution.
one book I have on the war says exactly that... the south didn't want Canada annexed because it would lead to the creation of free states. Apparently it was an issue even back then...
 

Marc

Donor
How much of that was an issue though in 1812? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall that there was much anti-slavery movement that early or that the slave states were too worried about the institution.[/QUO

By 1804 all of the Northern states had abolished slavery, or was in the process of gradual abolishing. One of the key parts of the Northwest Ordnance of 1780 - insisted on by New England states was that slavery would be banned in the Mid-West.
So yeah, even by 1812, it did matter, a lot.

Not so trivial, the English accepted all slaves who came into their possession as being free. Many ended up servicing - which freaked out the Southern States.
From the second, never sung, stanza of the Star Spangled Banner:

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
 

Lusitania

Donor
How much of that was an issue though in 1812? Maybe I'm wrong but I don't recall that there was much anti-slavery movement that early or that the slave states were too worried about the institution.

The issue was that the British would not of accepted the American annexation. Even if Napoleon had stayed in power the British Navy was sufficient to blockade Europe and attack the American coast. There would not of been a single village or town along the coast that was nt behind walls. So at some point the Americans would of been required to return all of British North America.
 
Ignoring the myriad of issues which would prevent any American occupation of the colonies of Upper Canada and Lower Canada circa 1812-1815, the best scenario the Americans can get in any conceivable universe is a repeat of the 1775 campaign where they march on Quebec. From there its hold on in the face of the inevitable British counter attack. Assuming they whether that storm and negotiate for control of the provinces of Canada you have a positive short term situation and a long term headache.

To whit, the debate now becomes whether to admit both new conquests as states or administer them as territories. Upper Canada you could conceivably get away with administering as a territory (80,000 in 1812), but Quebec (335,000 in 1814) will not submit to being a territory for a long time. In this period the French had an almost irrational fear of American institutions and culture, which will play poorly in both Quebec and Washington. Upper Canada is a wild card in whether it would swing towards being pro-US or anti-US in the future.

The addition of Quebec though, causes an unbalance in the free/slave state problem, and adding Upper Canada makes things worse. Most likely you're going to see an earlier source of friction between North and South. The worst part is that Britain now sees the US as a threat to its remaining colonies, and one which should be shoved in line hard when the chance is given. Most likely meaning that any internal problems in the US will see Britain working to exacerbate them. When the slavery question rears its ugly head (could be as early as the 1840s in this scenario) depending on the intervening years you could see rebellions in the South and North as Southerners yearn to break off for their peculiar institution and the Canadians yearn to break off for Church and Crown, depending on who you ask.

Worst case scenario is this leads to a balkanization of the US sometime in the 1850s.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Ignoring the myriad of issues which would prevent any American occupation of the colonies of Upper Canada and Lower Canada circa 1812-1815, the best scenario the Americans can get in any conceivable universe is a repeat of the 1775 campaign where they march on Quebec. From there its hold on in the face of the inevitable British counter attack. Assuming they whether that storm and negotiate for control of the provinces of Canada you have a positive short term situation and a long term headache.

To whit, the debate now becomes whether to admit both new conquests as states or administer them as territories. Upper Canada you could conceivably get away with administering as a territory (80,000 in 1812), but Quebec (335,000 in 1814) will not submit to being a territory for a long time. In this period the French had an almost irrational fear of American institutions and culture, which will play poorly in both Quebec and Washington. Upper Canada is a wild card in whether it would swing towards being pro-US or anti-US in the future.

The addition of Quebec though, causes an unbalance in the free/slave state problem, and adding Upper Canada makes things worse. Most likely you're going to see an earlier source of friction between North and South. The worst part is that Britain now sees the US as a threat to its remaining colonies, and one which should be shoved in line hard when the chance is given. Most likely meaning that any internal problems in the US will see Britain working to exacerbate them. When the slavery question rears its ugly head (could be as early as the 1840s in this scenario) depending on the intervening years you could see rebellions in the South and North as Southerners yearn to break off for their peculiar institution and the Canadians yearn to break off for Church and Crown, depending on who you ask.

Worst case scenario is this leads to a balkanization of the US sometime in the 1850s.

The issue about lower Canada (Quebec) is that either it becomes a US state right away or independent. The US has no federal army which state is going to pay for the thousands of militia to garrison.

All US territories are self administering with people enjoying freedom to move around. So what the Americans going to do occupy and garrison. Thousands of troops. Where the $ coming from. The US has been cutoff from London and it’s financial system. For America is no longer a Anglo brother but a adversary and seen the same way as the French.

So we could see Britain provide financing and protection to Mexico. You could see Britain even provide French Canadian rebels with $ snd weapons. All in bid to slow American growth. Oregon trail going to not be negotiated amiacably.
 
The issue about lower Canada (Quebec) is that either it becomes a US state right away or independent. The US has no federal army which state is going to pay for the thousands of militia to garrison.

All US territories are self administering with people enjoying freedom to move around. So what the Americans going to do occupy and garrison. Thousands of troops. Where the $ coming from. The US has been cutoff from London and it’s financial system. For America is no longer a Anglo brother but a adversary and seen the same way as the French.

So we could see Britain provide financing and protection to Mexico. You could see Britain even provide French Canadian rebels with $ snd weapons. All in bid to slow American growth. Oregon trail going to not be negotiated amiacably.
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To the French, all the anglosphere is (privately, of course) “les Anglo Saxons”. They delighted in what they considered an ethnic civil war, not the “American revolution”! That’s the long game here. They would eventually tire of the Anglo Saxon colonists (I.e. Americans) too, like the ones from blighty.
 

Lusitania

Donor
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To the French, all the anglosphere is (privately, of course) “les Anglo Saxons”. They delighted in what they considered an ethnic civil war, not the “American revolution”! That’s the long game here. They would eventually tire of the Anglo Saxon colonists (I.e. Americans) too, like the ones from blighty.
No the Quebecois elite and powerful Catholic church had a very cozy arrangement with the British who let them be and continue like they had prior to capture of Quebec by British. They were very scared of the Americans with their anti-Catholic organizations.

So yes the Americans can either let the French be independent since they had no interest in being Americans or would the Americans decide that they would enlighten them?
 
So yes the Americans can either let the French be independent since they had no interest in being Americans or would the Americans decide that they would enlighten them?
America's best option would probably to have Quebec independent but firmly within their sphere of influce.

With only Upper Canada/Ontario as a proper territory and future state the south shouldn't worry too much yet about being outnumbered in congress. They probably will be anyways tho
 
This is even less likely and unrealistic than the various "Japan Wins WWII in the Pacific" scenarios that come up in the Post-1900 forum.
 
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