What if US won the War of 1812?

Lusitania

Donor
the only real fact about the War of 1812 that seems to be mentioned in school back in my day was that Francis Scott Key wrote The Star Spangled Banner during the conflict... no real mention of just how the war ran or even who won it...
Ok that seems to be more like what I had imagined.
 
In Ukraine War of 1812 is barely mentioned. Just two sentenches in history book.
I by myself is big fan of US history, so I learned about its history all by myself.
 
Trouble with taking Canada is that is something the UK cannot ignore. The RN then does what NE feared and starts crippling US trade. Que the US giving Canada back and saying sorry. The USN in 1812 had fewer ships in total than the RN had in the West Indies and without access to UK finance ( largest in the world and dominated ship insurance ) the US economy craters fast ( everyone else was short of cash to the point that the anti-French were asking for UK subsidies).
 
Yes but while US could absorb few ten thousands of French Catholics or Spanish Catholics we have had few heated arguments on the fact the Quebec had over 200,000 Catholics. How would anti-catholic US handle that?

Discrimination is very likely going to lead to an insurrection.
 

Marc

Donor
I have wondered if the United States might have contemplated only a partial, but potent annexation of Canadian territories. Say, securing south Ontario, and therefore the entire Great Lakes basin.

1280px-Great-Lakes-Basin_vi.svg.png
 
as with the Mexican-American War, the US would probably annex a large chunk of the relatively unpopulated regions. the area around Quebec City and Montreal is returned to Britain. Unless the US conquered the Acadia region, they can't get their hands on it - Ditto for the Hudson bay company region.


I'm guessing a big chunk around the Great Lakes, and a push of the western border northward. The US doesn't want to absorb major political factions. Just the argument over the slave-non slave balance is going to be trouble enough.

The War of 1812 IS actually an important topic to be taught in school. 40 plus years ago, in my class, it was taught in a fairly unbiased way - that it was basically a draw, but had many effects that made it a de facto win for the US.
 

Lusitania

Donor
as with the Mexican-American War, the US would probably annex a large chunk of the relatively unpopulated regions. the area around Quebec City and Montreal is returned to Britain. Unless the US conquered the Acadia region, they can't get their hands on it - Ditto for the Hudson bay company region.


I'm guessing a big chunk around the Great Lakes, and a push of the western border northward. The US doesn't want to absorb major political factions. Just the argument over the slave-non slave balance is going to be trouble enough.

The War of 1812 IS actually an important topic to be taught in school. 40 plus years ago, in my class, it was taught in a fairly unbiased way - that it was basically a draw, but had many effects that made it a de facto win for the US.


I can see how the uS wanted to make it seem like a win. They got the British to stop impressing American sailors. But that was more due to fact Napoleon been defeated than anything else. The other major irritant was the British support for natives in Midwest. But the British were not fighting to conquer anything just to force the Americans to conclude the war. But the only major American campaign against the British/ Canadians was a major defeat.
 
I mean, are we assuming actual long-term occupation of Canada and annexation, or just a better ending position to have more leverage at the negotiating table?
 
Trouble with taking Canada is that is something the UK cannot ignore. The RN then does what NE feared and starts crippling US trade. Que the US giving Canada back and saying sorry. The USN in 1812 had fewer ships in total than the RN had in the West Indies and without access to UK finance ( largest in the world and dominated ship insurance ) the US economy craters fast ( everyone else was short of cash to the point that the anti-French were asking for UK subsidies).

I agree. The US may take Upper Canada but won't hold it unless Napoleon remains a serious threat to British interests in Europe. The UK simply won't let it go and the Royal Navy can raid the US coast with impunity, not to speak of destroying US shipping.

I think that the best case scenario would be the US holding Upper Canada and Quebec until the UK signs a treaty agreeing to not impress American sailors and accept neutral shipping rights. This was the cause of the US entry into the war and would be a clear US victory--albeit one with a staggering financial cost. Again, this is not likely with Napoleon still militarily active on the Continent.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I agree. The US may take Upper Canada but won't hold it unless Napoleon remains a serious threat to British interests in Europe. The UK simply won't let it go and the Royal Navy can raid the US coast with impunity, not to speak of destroying US shipping.

I think that the best case scenario would be the US holding Upper Canada and Quebec until the UK signs a treaty agreeing to not impress American sailors and accept neutral shipping rights. This was the cause of the US entry into the war and would be a clear US victory--albeit one with a staggering financial cost. Again, this is not likely with Napoleon still militarily active on the Continent.
But the British were willing to negotiate to end the war. It was the war hawks in congress that started the war. The British were eager to resume trade for trade with the uS was not only very profitable for British industry but also provided alotbif taxes to the government.

All British actions were meant to bring US to negotiation table so not sure capturing British North America going to do that with Britain already prepared for that. No what an American capture of British north America will do is piss of the British and they would respond by more naval attacks along coast and raids plus a major military endeavor to recapture the occupied territory.
 
Trouble with taking Canada is that is something the UK cannot ignore. The RN then does what NE feared and starts crippling US trade. Que the US giving Canada back and saying sorry. The USN in 1812 had fewer ships in total than the RN had in the West Indies and without access to UK finance ( largest in the world and dominated ship insurance ) the US economy craters fast ( everyone else was short of cash to the point that the anti-French were asking for UK subsidies).

Sounds OTL from 1812-1815, without having Canada to give back.
Ghent looks a lot different if most of British North America (however that happens, it's not ASB, but definitely a US Wank) is under US Control.
 
If the US won the war then what about the US picking up a few Caribbean island from England? Something like the British Virgin islands, Cayman islands, Turks and Caicos Islands and Montserrat. Would this be acceptable to England? They keep Canada and Jamaica.
 
If the US won the war then what about the US picking up a few Caribbean island from England? Something like the British Virgin islands, Cayman islands, Turks and Caicos Islands and Montserrat. Would this be acceptable to England? They keep Canada and Jamaica.

Haha no. Assuming that the US does well enough militarily to occupy meaningful chunks of Canada - whether this be good luck, better planning, or Napoleon not losing the Grand Army invading Russia - the most they're going to keep is a favorable border adjustments with Canada.

The South was adamantly opposed to annexation of Canada, fearing future free states. New England didn't want to risk pissing off the British so badly that they refuse peace offers until they reclaim lost (Canadian) territory. Between the two, even if the United States *can* hold sizable chunks of Canada, they won't *try* to.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Sounds OTL from 1812-1815, without having Canada to give back.
Ghent looks a lot different if most of British North America (however that happens, it's not ASB, but definitely a US Wank) is under US Control.
The issue is that a US wank ignores the major political limitations of the American Federal government which had not army to speak of. The states were very suspicious of Federal powers and were against the establishment of large US military. The various state militias were for most part led by mediocre leaders looking to gain political "points" for their leadership. There were hardly any trained military people in country. Granted some are born leaders others such as those who attempted to invade Canada lacking in many skills. The US had emerged from the ARW broke and the Federal government limited in what money it could get as well under huge debt incurred to finance their independence. By 1800 it had been able to establish a small navy to protect the US but in no way able to challenge the might of the British Navy. So you need a huge WAND to accomplish that.
 
Canadian nationalist sentiments aside, Canada's fate here is entirely dependent on how Britain fares. If by some miracle Napoleon manages to somehow stabilize the continental system long-term, lock down control of Europe, and then cut off and bankrupt England...

OK, this requires further hypothetical. Boney offers the King of Prussia Emperorship of Germany (including those rich Austrian lands!) for alliance, and through skill and battlefield luck, they manage to wrap up Germany and get western and Central Europe under joint control fairly early. Somehow they convince Russia to join the band in exchange for, I dunno, political stake in Hungary or something? Enough that Europe is reliably under Boney's control. So he can focus on bankrupting and invading Britain.

So America says "yo Britain stop impressing our dudes", Britain says "fuck you, we need dudes", America says, "don't care, those are OUR dudes, asswipe", war breaks out, but then Boney invades Britain and it turns into a clusterfuck.

America slowly grinds up into Canada (at the time, America was only somewhat more powerful than Canada, not overwhelmingly so, so the Ontario peninsula is going to take some major work. Napoleon offers an alliance to the Americans complete with lucrative trade deals AND some nice new land out West at fire-sale prices! America has money, wants trade, doesn't mind some cheap land, Boney needs money, is trying to build a trade bloc to cut the Brits out of the loop, doesn't really need a big American empire that nobody really cares about anyway and is populated mostly by Spaniards and lots and lots of natives. Match made in heaven.

The Feds finally get it through the states' thick skulls that an organized military is an actual thing that the USA NEEDS. American national identity starts to form, much like OTL.

Southern states are really not on board with taking the Ontario peninsula and probably the northwestern shore regions (Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, etc.) because that cuts into their unfair Congressional advantage. But with the French quite likely offering a sweetheart deal for the English-speaking areas in exchange for collaboration on the lucrative fur trade and France keeping Quebec, well, money talks, and the South can be mollified with Louisiana and slave-power control over the Mississippi delta.

Expansionism is likely more of a thing and goes further--more of Mexico is taken, probably bits of Central America and the Caribbean, too. The North is more powerful earlier and probably industrializes a bit quicker due to higher population and a somewhat stronger economy.

We end up with an expansionist, French-aligned, abolitionist for reasons of Northern economic practicality USA.

I'd prefer OTL's "war was a draw, won the peace".
 

Lusitania

Donor
Canadian nationalist sentiments aside, Canada's fate here is entirely dependent on how Britain fares. If by some miracle Napoleon manages to somehow stabilize the continental system long-term, lock down control of Europe, and then cut off and bankrupt England...

OK, this requires further hypothetical. Boney offers the King of Prussia Emperorship of Germany (including those rich Austrian lands!) for alliance, and through skill and battlefield luck, they manage to wrap up Germany and get western and Central Europe under joint control fairly early. Somehow they convince Russia to join the band in exchange for, I dunno, political stake in Hungary or something? Enough that Europe is reliably under Boney's control. So he can focus on bankrupting and invading Britain.

So America says "yo Britain stop impressing our dudes", Britain says "fuck you, we need dudes", America says, "don't care, those are OUR dudes, asswipe", war breaks out, but then Boney invades Britain and it turns into a clusterfuck.

America slowly grinds up into Canada (at the time, America was only somewhat more powerful than Canada, not overwhelmingly so, so the Ontario peninsula is going to take some major work. Napoleon offers an alliance to the Americans complete with lucrative trade deals AND some nice new land out West at fire-sale prices! America has money, wants trade, doesn't mind some cheap land, Boney needs money, is trying to build a trade bloc to cut the Brits out of the loop, doesn't really need a big American empire that nobody really cares about anyway and is populated mostly by Spaniards and lots and lots of natives. Match made in heaven.

The Feds finally get it through the states' thick skulls that an organized military is an actual thing that the USA NEEDS. American national identity starts to form, much like OTL.

Southern states are really not on board with taking the Ontario peninsula and probably the northwestern shore regions (Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, etc.) because that cuts into their unfair Congressional advantage. But with the French quite likely offering a sweetheart deal for the English-speaking areas in exchange for collaboration on the lucrative fur trade and France keeping Quebec, well, money talks, and the South can be mollified with Louisiana and slave-power control over the Mississippi delta.

Expansionism is likely more of a thing and goes further--more of Mexico is taken, probably bits of Central America and the Caribbean, too. The North is more powerful earlier and probably industrializes a bit quicker due to higher population and a somewhat stronger economy.

We end up with an expansionist, French-aligned, abolitionist for reasons of Northern economic practicality USA.

I'd prefer OTL's "war was a draw, won the peace".
The issue is that Britain is not going bankrupt and that the British navy controls seas.
I get what you proposing but that is a Pod of 1800 not a war if 1812 as per iotl. But by that pod anything could of happened.
 
The issue is that Britain is not going bankrupt and that the British navy controls seas.
I get what you proposing but that is a Pod of 1800 not a war if 1812 as per iotl. But by that pod anything could of happened.
PoD of 1812 it's basically impossible for the disorganized mess that was the USA at the time to get a better treaty. Not if it doesn't want the Brits to manufacture a casus belli and make things unpleasant down the line.

It would suck to be Canada during the war but then it'd suck a lot more to be America 20 years later.
 
So is this the likeliest map from an alternate peace treaty ?

The United States gets control of the entirety of the Great Lakes watershed ?

upload_2019-1-7_0-43-8.png
 
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The issue is that Britain is not going bankrupt and that the British navy controls seas.
I get what you proposing but that is a Pod of 1800 not a war if 1812 as per iotl. But by that pod anything could of happened.
Which POD? Im rather curious...
 
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