Bishamonten give me your divine protection!I believe it's best that Japan removed itself of parasitic Christian influence, so they can peacefully meditate and worship Buddha.
What if Tokugawa Ieyasu converted to Christanity?
- Thread starter Jouaint
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NothingNow
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Yeah, except he already was, and we got the Meiji restoration from that. Now imagine if he's the friggin Pope as well.
You know, is the the idea of the Emperor being descended from divinity (non christian divinity) and the idea of the single Christian God mutually exclusive?
Cause then we might have a bit of "The Japanese Emperor is the descendent of Jesus Christ" there.
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perhaps a Da Vinci code-style legend pops up that the Shogunate might propagate. Let's say it claims that Mary Magdaline, pregnant with Jesus' baby, flees Judea with St. Thomas to India, remarrying a merchant. Then twenty years later the baby she was carrying (a girl) travels with her father to Japan, where she falls in love with the future Emperor Keiko and marries him, her therefore being Empress Hamira, giving birth to Prince Osu. Thus the Emperor would be the descendant of Jesus and Mary Magdaline.
That sounds like the plotline by the next incarnation of James Clavell.
While I still think there's a big possibility Christianization would fail, this is a likely possibility that was enjoyable to read and fun to think about.
I believe it's best that Japan removed itself of parasitic Christian influence, so they can peacefully meditate and worship Buddha.
You are all fools! Japan should see the light of Zoroaster.
I believe a better way to say it would be "see the purity of Zoroasters word" or truth or something, Zoroastrians where really big on truth (more than most religions, as in lying was treated almost as badly as murder big). Oh or "See the purity of Ahura Mazda's flame". Zoroaster wasnt a god afterall.
I think it's possible for Japan to convert to Christianity at about this time, but by the time Tokugawa's taken over, it's too late. As has been said before, given the political situation, this is simply something he would not do, and if he personally converted he would keep this secret. He was not stupid enough to give himself such a handicap.
OTL, Tokugawa was anti-Christian, as was Hideyoshi before him, because of the belief in a Catholic conspiracy to convert Japanese peasants and build an army that will support the Spanish or Portuguese in an invasion. This rumor was spread by misunderstandings and, once the Dutch and English arrived, Protestant encouragement. This was also the big reason Japan cut itself off entirely from Catholic Europe (and almost entirely from the Protestants) in the 1620s and '30s.
We could Christianize Japan during this time, but only with an earlier POD during the warring states era. For many years westernization was all the rage among nobles, and some minor daimyo did convert OTL, mostly in Kyushu. It shouldn't be too hard to twist things around during the sixty years between the Portuguese's first arrival and the unification of Japan to make conversion more politically beneficial, perhaps due to a powerful Kyushu Christian daimyo patron. Do that, and a lot of daimyo will convert, bringing their subjects with them. This still might not totally convert Japan, resulting in a Christian southeast and Shinto-Buddhist northwest.
As an added bonus, alternate (and likely extended) Sengoku Era with lots of samurai battles. Fun for everyone.
OTL, Tokugawa was anti-Christian, as was Hideyoshi before him, because of the belief in a Catholic conspiracy to convert Japanese peasants and build an army that will support the Spanish or Portuguese in an invasion. This rumor was spread by misunderstandings and, once the Dutch and English arrived, Protestant encouragement. This was also the big reason Japan cut itself off entirely from Catholic Europe (and almost entirely from the Protestants) in the 1620s and '30s.
We could Christianize Japan during this time, but only with an earlier POD during the warring states era. For many years westernization was all the rage among nobles, and some minor daimyo did convert OTL, mostly in Kyushu. It shouldn't be too hard to twist things around during the sixty years between the Portuguese's first arrival and the unification of Japan to make conversion more politically beneficial, perhaps due to a powerful Kyushu Christian daimyo patron. Do that, and a lot of daimyo will convert, bringing their subjects with them. This still might not totally convert Japan, resulting in a Christian southeast and Shinto-Buddhist northwest.
As an added bonus, alternate (and likely extended) Sengoku Era with lots of samurai battles. Fun for everyone.
I don't think it naturally follows that if Tokugawa converted for any reason that it would lead to his downfall or the Spanish gaining control. Even if he had some kind of Damascene conversion experience, he is still top warlord and a canny politician.
1) Tokugawa converting to Christianity does not mean an automatic rebellion against him. As long as he keeps his religion private and does not force anyone else to convert, he should still be able to balance everything to stay in power. Japan already accomodated the arrival of Buddhism, it can accomodate Christianity as well.
2) By converting to Christianity, Tokugawa gains a tremendous advantage over the missionaries. In exchange for his protection and patronage, he can demand - and likely get - the appointment of Japanese to become priests and bishops. He can keep the Europeans divided by favoring Portuguese versus Spanish and then vice versa. Building the infrastructure of a national church with the Catholic rite will take time, but it is not impossible. Most European Catholic countries at the time had immense control over the church in their own lands, and there is nothing preventing Tokugawa from doing the same. A Japanese Constantine has a lot more options available to him to control the Christian orders and harness them to his benefit than a non-Christian who merely tolerates them. He could achieve a control over the Japanese Catholic Church that he never could over the Buddhist sects.
The major change is that instead of isolating Japan, Tokugawa would be bringing it permanently into the European world trade system as a strong, independent power.
I don't see Japan becoming full Christian, but it is possible that Christianity could become accepted as equally Japanese as Buddhism became.
1) Tokugawa converting to Christianity does not mean an automatic rebellion against him. As long as he keeps his religion private and does not force anyone else to convert, he should still be able to balance everything to stay in power. Japan already accomodated the arrival of Buddhism, it can accomodate Christianity as well.
2) By converting to Christianity, Tokugawa gains a tremendous advantage over the missionaries. In exchange for his protection and patronage, he can demand - and likely get - the appointment of Japanese to become priests and bishops. He can keep the Europeans divided by favoring Portuguese versus Spanish and then vice versa. Building the infrastructure of a national church with the Catholic rite will take time, but it is not impossible. Most European Catholic countries at the time had immense control over the church in their own lands, and there is nothing preventing Tokugawa from doing the same. A Japanese Constantine has a lot more options available to him to control the Christian orders and harness them to his benefit than a non-Christian who merely tolerates them. He could achieve a control over the Japanese Catholic Church that he never could over the Buddhist sects.
The major change is that instead of isolating Japan, Tokugawa would be bringing it permanently into the European world trade system as a strong, independent power.
I don't see Japan becoming full Christian, but it is possible that Christianity could become accepted as equally Japanese as Buddhism became.
@Blackfox5
Portugal was ruled by spain at this point. There was a lot of jealousy and rivalry, yes, but very little effective split he could use for traction.
I suppose he could try it and watch as the europeans laughed in his face.....
Portugal was ruled by spain at this point. There was a lot of jealousy and rivalry, yes, but very little effective split he could use for traction.
I suppose he could try it and watch as the europeans laughed in his face.....
Agreed. Whilst Ieyasu liked some European things (trade, his European style hat, firearms), he liked to consolidate his power even more. Converting to Christianity would be a good way to make him hated by the majority of his supporters who were, at this time, not Christians. He had some who were, such as one of his chief cavalry commanders (I forget his name), and Christianity was on the rise-but there were still enough traditionalists and xenophobes out there to be a threat.
I had forgotten, but I don't think that matters. My understanding is that while the King of Castille and Aragon is also the King of Portugal that the Portuguese government was still separate. Non-Castillians were still barred from Castillian colonies in the New World, and the Portuguese still kept out the Spanish from trading in their colonies. Even though there was a viceroy in Lisbon, the Portuguese ran their state and empire themselves. There were various attempts to harmonize and consolidate the separate realms into one entity, but none ever worked. The union was not very popular in Portugal. The various religious orders were always at odds, and often for national reasons. So I think there is still significant room for Tokugawa to manipulate things. Unless the king himself gets involved - and Philip III is not one who gets involved in the details of governance - to create a united effort about missionary activities a world away, I think my point stands.
No, it doesn't.
That's REALLY not going to get him very far. Honestly.
And the Spanish (or Portuguese) are still going to use the church to try to puppetize Japan. Which Tokugawa can't allow.
Even if he DID go that route, which I really doubt, HE doesn't need to convert. He can make their continued existence conditional on ordaining local priests and bishops. The stick of threat of expulsion, carrot of additional privileges would work almost as well and have few of the massive political downsides of converting. Heck, the dangling promise of a 'pending' conversion would make them even more willing to accommodate him than an actual conversion. If he converts, he's then theoretically subject to the Pope (and the local religious leaders, then).
So what would be wrong with that approach? It would weaken the strength of foreign powers operating through the church, and eventually give Japan its own measure of influence over domestic Catholics.
Fulfilling the title suggestion of the OP, a christian-friendly Tokugawa could have a legend (or smear, perhaps) established after his passing that he was converted and baptized on his deathbed. The legend of course need not be true.
Tokugwawa could convert without letting Japan be puppetized by the Spanish. He might be theoretically subject to the Pope, but so was every ruler in Europe, and it's not like Papal dictate automatically brought the rulers of France, Spain, Germany, etc to their knees. In fact, I would imagine that if he did convert, he'd find it very easy to play the Christian powers, like Spain or Portugal, against each other.
I would be more inclined to listen to your argument if you actually provide evidence to support it. Simply saying “nuh-uh” doesn’t cut it. You mentioned that there was one king who ruled both Spain and Portugal at the time. I responded that it didn’t matter because 1) the Portuguese and Spanish realms were kept separate from each other, 2) that all attempts to merge them failed and were opposed by the Portuguese, and 3) that laws of the two realms severely limited what Spanish could do in the Portuguese empire and vice versa. All of that greatly hurts the ability of the king to coordinate any policy towards Japan. You have said nothing that contradicts or undermines my point.
IOTL, the non-Christian rulers of Japan did play the various Christian missionary groups against each other. Jesuits (who were supported by the Portuguese) were intense rivals to the Franciscans and Dominicans (who were supported by the Spanish in Manila) in Japan. If having one king is supposed to prevent rivalry, how do you explain this rivalry? The primary literature is filled with disagreements between them. These orders were often played against each other. Yet for some reason, you seem to think that a Christian Tokugawa would no longer be capable of the same thing that the non-Christian Tokugawa (and Hideyoshi and Nobunaga) easily did.
How does being a Christian suddenly prevent Tokugawa from exploiting this rivalry? He has even more influence through actual and potential patronage to favor allies and punish enemies. In Japan, the missionaries are heavily dependent on the support of the Japanese Christians. If they want a church built, permission to proselytize, trade concessions, anything – they need permission. Both Spain and the Pope are very far away and have very limited ability to influence events in Japan. Tokugawa is right there. When Constantine converted, he gained immense influence – even control – over the Roman Church. He didn’t lose it because he converted. Tokugawa is in a very similar situation except in determining the dogma of the church.
The Spanish monarchy had great influence in the Catholic Church in Spain. This is one reason why the Spanish kings opposed the Jesuits who were devoted to the Pope. The Portuguese who still run their Empire – albeit with a viceroy in Lisbon whose main focus is not Japan – are going to run things to benefit them, not the Spanish. Even within the Jesuits, Portuguese members accused Spanish members of not working for the Order, but for the crown. These are rivalries the Spanish king couldn’t control in Europe, how can he suddenly prevent them in Japan?
And of course, you have a large number of Japanese Christians whose loyalty is not to Spain or Portugal. There are already many Japanese priests, and intense interest in ordaining more native Japanese. Eventually some of these will become bishops. None of them will have the interests of foreign powers at heart. So Tokugawa can play three factions against each other, one of which he can expect extremely loyalty to him. And of course, the population of Christians is almost entirely Japanese. The number of Europeans are negligible. The Europeans - despite the fantasies of certain individuals - had zero chance to manipulate the Japanese, control the country, or invade the islands.
Tokugawa even has the capability of threatening to let the Dutch and English into Japan and convert to Protestantism in order to scare concessions out of the Catholic Church.
What leverage does the King of Spain have? None. He doesn’t control the Jesuits. He doesn’t even directly control Portugal, and when he does the interest is about foreign policy in Europe – particularly the Dutch Revolt – not the activities of the Church in Japan.
I would be far more interested in hearing you explain, precisely, how the Portuguese and Spanish will unite and “puppetize” Japan. You keep claiming it, but I don’t see any proof.
You are correct that in many ways, Tokugawa doesn’t need to convert to do this, but that was never the issue. The question/POD is not, “What is the best way for Tokugawa to influence the Catholic Church in Japan,” it is “What happens if he converts?” The issue is that some said converting to Christianity means Tokugawa becomes a puppet. This is decisively refuted. There is zero chance of Tokugawa becoming a puppet, but the exact opposite - there is now a much greater chance he can decisively dominate the Japanese Church by becoming the Japanese Constantine.
If you have a problem with the idea that Tokugawa would convert, I think everyone agrees that is extremely unlikely. But if you must comment, then keep it at that. Don't make unsupportable claims that the Europeans will now dominate and control Tokugawa as a puppet since their is no evidence they even have the capacity to do that, much less attempt it, or succeed in doing so.
Converting to Catholicism may make him theoretically subordinate to the Pope in religious matters, but there is nothing that will make Tokugawa actually subordinate in any way. Papal claims to universal dominion did not make European kings subordinate to them. Often the Pope did not even have real control over the various national churches. At best the Popes were able to keep the clergy independent and limit royal prerogatives to appoint priests and bishops. In practice, the kings often got whom they wanted appointed anyway. Japan, far removed from the history of the European development of the Church, has zero tradition of Papal involvement in politics. This statement is meaningless. I'd like to see any European priest try to browbeat Tokugawa - even a Christian Tokugawa - into doing something he doesn't want to. No one in their right mind would even attempt to do that against a European king, much less a priest alone in Japan.